Miata questions/ F-body praise

[Nightrage]

I figured that it would be better to post this here. Even though it's a tech question, it's non F-body related.

I've made up my mind. I'm keeping the Trans Am. I love it. It is what it is. It doesn't run 12's, it doesn't handle as well as i'd like, but darn it, it's mine and i love it to death. Before i bought the car i had people warning me, "No man, Firebirds and Camaro's are nothing but mechanical problems! You'll regret it! Get an import!". At 81,500 miles, i can honestly say that the only mechanical problem i've had with this car was a blown $1 fuse. My grandparents are thinking of moving out of state. If this is ever the case, i'll move with them. They want to move somewhere that isn't as crowded, and with any luck, somewhere that lacks strict emissions laws .

I'll be keeping my Trans Am forever and i want to keep it close to stock. Maybe a bolt on here or there, but i don't want this to be my "fun car". Before i bought the T/A i thought about getting a Miata. I dismissed it for 3 reasons. 1- It's tiny. If an SUV were to t-bone me, i dread the thought of how that would turn out. 2. They're painfully slow. 3. The tiny, underpowered motor gets relatively poor gas mileage.
Since we'll be in a less populated state, the thought of an accident with an SUV or some other massive vehicle doesn't pose as much of a threat. By the time we move, i should have a decent amount of money. I've seen a lot of Miata's with 5.0 and 5.7 V8 swaps. I don't want something that rediculous. The stock motor is garbage, so i definitely want to swap it out. I'm thinking of doing a turbo 3.8 swap. I figure that i can get a cheap 3.8 from a 4th gen f-body and swap it in. They're supposed to be amazing motors, from what everyone tells me and from everything i've read. Any idea of what a swap like this would cost? I don't want to go nuts. I want to run a decent amount of boost but i don't want to have to switch to excessively heavy internals and a huge, lopey cam. Any ideas as to whether or not i'd be able to use a manual tranny? I know that many people have problems with fitting manual transmissions into the car.

[Trash man]

just turbo the stock motor, they are a lightweight, it doesnt take much hp to make them as fast or faster then a f-body. a buddy of mine, his cuzin has a turbo miata, running 11s and still drives it on the street and gets better gasmileage then my t/a

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Dropping the antiquated 3.8L V6 into the Miata would be a terrible decision. If you are looking for a good V6, look to Nissan's VQ35. But that's beside the point... a motor swap into a Miata... but a V6? I cannot fathom any practical reason for doing such a thing unless your main goal is to see how you can effectively waste as much money as possible.

Maybe I'm just becoming an old fuddy-duddy... but I just fail to see the excitement in elaborate modifications to most cars these days. The Miata's engine is fine for what it is. If you must modiy it, throw a turbo on it and call it a day.

As for keeping your car stock... why? A 4th generation f-body is not a collector's item - and you already have 80K on the odo. Just have fun with it and modify it as much as you want.

[Nightrage]

Maybe I'm just becoming an old fuddy-duddy... but I just fail to see the excitement in elaborate modifications to most cars these days.

345 RWHP, 360 RWTQ, with a host of bolt-ons, and a completely stock motor internally.

I don't get where you're coming from? And why would it be a waste of money? The stock Miata motor has no torque or any other form of power. I'd imagine it would see some kind of turbo lag, right? Why not just drop in a turbo 3.8? It would be like shaving 1,000lbs off a Grand National and making it handle like a go cart.

[TraceZ]

I gotta ask, why the fascination with a Miata? IMO they are little pieces of crap. If anything, they are a sissy womans car. I cannot see a strait man driving one. LOL.

If you really want a convertible why not get something more substantial. Something a man can drive and feel good about. Something that already has good power and handling.

Maybe an F-body convertible? They are a ton of fun, you know! They are also available with a 6-speed!

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

I don't get where you're coming from? And why would it be a waste of money? The stock Miata motor has no torque or any other form of power. I'd imagine it would see some kind of turbo lag, right? Why not just drop in a turbo 3.8? It would be like shaving 1,000lbs off a Grand National and making it handle like a go cart.

I imagine you quoted my sig because you think I contradicted myself by saying that I don't see the point in elaborate modifications? Bolt ons are NOT elaborate modifications... what I had done to my car was nothing more than intake and exhaust work with some tuning to maximize the gains from it... all in all, about a 40 rwhp increase over stock.

What I don't understand is how you seem to be under the impression that any old motor can just be "dropped in" to any car. It's extremely labor intensive if you do it yourself, and pretty dog-gone expensive to have it done professionally. Plus then there is the question of - can it even be done in the first place? Where I really REALLY fail to understand you is how this thing would make any sense from the checkbook standpoint. You are going to buy a Miata - completely overhaul the engine and do a replacement, spending thousands upon thousands of dollars - all to have a Miata that is fast in a straight-line -- which is completely the OPPOSITE concept that the car was built for in the first place. Don't forget the added weight of the new engine will throw off its handling characteristics... it probably would still be a quick, zippy little car... but it wouldn't handle as well as it would stock.

"The stock Miata motor has no torque or any other form of power"

No, but your Trans Am does. But for some reason you don't want to modify that car... you'd rather drop all this money in to a car to make it perform more like your Trans Am. That's basically what you are saying -- I want a Miata that is as fast as the Trans Am.

I'm all about the individuality of the different cars... why not accept them both for what they are... instead of wasting your money turning a Miata in to something it is not? ... I'm not suggesting you don't modify it... but if you want a Grand National motor, buy a Grand National. Miatas are awesome cars (contrary to TraceZ's post) but they are not tire shredding torque monsters, and it would be a serious waste of money to turn one in to such a thing - ESPECIALLY when you already have a Trans Am - but if you've got the cash flow, then go for it man.

[Steel2686]

I agree on both Tracy and Jay's posts.

Tracy's point - I'm with him on this. This is just an opinion, but I tend to assume any male driving a Miata is borrowing his wife's/girlfriend's car. I guess it's better than seeing a male driving a new VW Bug.... Marginally.

Jay's point - Swapping a different motor than what was originally designed for the car is a ton more work than it's almost worth. I helped my Brother swap out a motor in his '84 Vette (worst Vette year ever) because of the garbage engine GM used that year, and installed a built 350 in it's place. Even though they were essentially the same engine size, there was loads of labor involved. I can't imagine what it would take for a Miata.

Here's where I'm confused. Do you want to keep the Miata AND the Trans Am? If so, why bother modding the Miata? You already have a torqey motor in the T/A. Build upon that, starting with bolt-ons. You'd be suprised how much of a difference they make. If you still want a quick import, you can find an RX-7 fairly cheap.

[thomas]

IMO (not that its worth anything ) I think it would be a wiring nightmare, let alone to see if it will fit.

[Red20170]

The miata is designed to be an inexpensive roadster. I rode in one that was supercharged by jackson racing. Here is the link if you decide to add a little power to it.
http://www.jacksonracing.com/Browse/...&PlateTypeID=1

[Nightrage]

I imagine you quoted my sig because you think I contradicted myself by saying that I don't see the point in elaborate modifications? Bolt ons are NOT elaborate modifications... what I had done to my car was nothing more than intake and exhaust work with some tuning to maximize the gains from it... all in all, about a 40 rwhp increase over stock.

Maybe bolt ons aren't as hard to add to the car as internal mods, but they still cost quite a bit. $500+ for a good cat back, $600+ for headers, $250 for a decent CAI and so on. Like i said though, this is 2-3 years down the road. I'll have plenty of money saved, not to mention i don't plan on doing this overnight.

There are plenty of people that have dropped LS1's in their Miata. I'd assume that the LS1 would require more room than a 3.8 would. I've looked into it a bit and found out that a 350Z motor wouldn't clear and neither would a turbo 300ZX motor. I think it was Joe that told me that there are 3.8's out there with aluminum blocks. You just have to dish out the additional money. Wouldn't you be able to keep the car well balanced with a stronger rear and bigger tires in the back? I don't really care how gay i look in the car. I've been with the same girl for over 2 years and i've never found a man to be even remotely attractive, so i'm pretty sure i'm heterosexual lol.

I like to think about things like this. Some other ideas that i have are a 3rd gen Camaro or Firebird ('91-'92 for Firebirds). I also like mid 80's Monte Carlos and C4's. Maybe it would be a better idea to swap an LS2 into an 84 C4? I love Grand nationals, but they're not for me. Whatever i get absolutely 100% has to be manual. It would be blasphemy to swap a manual tranny into a GN. I want something light that handles well. I figured that a 3.8 wouldn't weigh that much, it has plenty of power and they're not hard to come by. I still have a few years to think this through.

[Crazy Canuk]

I would do a search on how hard it is to switch the LT1 into a V6 firebird. Then think about moving it into a diffrent body all together. That is probably alot of custom work to do. If I was to sup up the Miata I would use a turbo or blower. It may be alot for the parts and insalation but only a fraction of a new motor and all the custom work needed for a diffrent motor.
Bolt ons for the f-bodys can be expencive but there are also less expensive options. Hooker exhaust not borla, shure borla is awsome but for the cost you can get CAI, Headers and a catback all for more hp gains then just the borla easly. Anyways I am famous of underestimating projects and even I once I did some research into engine swaps have turned the idea down way to much work and WAY WAY to expencive.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Maybe bolt ons aren't as hard to add to the car as internal mods, but they still cost quite a bit. $500+ for a good cat back, $600+ for headers, $250 for a decent CAI and so on.

What in the world do you think a project like you are talking about would cost???? Those parts are a FRACTION of what a motor swap costs - let alone a motor swap into a car that it wasn't even designed for... the custom fabrication is going to be absolutely retarded. Then there is the transmission and rear end (I don't think they make a 9" for a Miata, by the way, which means this would need to be entirely custom - not to mention the fact that you'd be giving up the handling characteristics of IRS), ALL of which will need custom fabrication to get the parts to work together. I wouldn't be surprised if the final price tag is north of $20,000. And for what end product? A Miata that performs like an f-body, and no longer handles like a Miata. Yay. You have an f-body already.

[Christopherrr]

I gotta ask, why the fascination with a Miata? IMO they are little pieces of crap. If anything, they are a sissy womans car. I cannot see a strait man driving one. LOL.

You never drove one hard. I tell you that my best friends MX5 was a dream to drive...telepathic. I could honestly feel each tire grip and slide...



They aren't crap...

Sure it's a lil girly, but believe me, he's car wasn't girly. A blast to drive.

His gas milage did suck for a four banger...gearing was very aggressive. It's built better than my TA and things are easy to repair.

Nightrage, if you want one, I advocate it all the way...one hellva car. You just have to massage it a good bit. I wouldn't advise on a motor swap...it'll throw the 50/50 balance off. FI my friend... It's a handler.

[Nightrage]

Thanks Lim. I did what i should have done in the first place- asked this question on a Miata message board. I was told that it's not very complicated to perform and that several people have done it. One guy on the board is swapping in a turbo'd 3.4 liter V6. They seem to think that it's a good idea, whereas people here seem to think i'm retarded.

Here are two responses-

The engine itself will fit into the car with no major issues. However, I remember a past post where the consensus was that the turbo/intake unit is too tall to fit under the Miata hood. I have not measured the height of the turbo version myself. That's something you need to check out. Worst case, the turbo could be relocated with some fabrication & re-plumbing. On that topic, no kit is available for this swap. Pretty much all the parts needed must be made by you. If you like the 3.8L you might also want to consider the aluminum Rover/Olds/Buick V-8. These V-8s are from the same engine family as the 3.8L and would be no more work to install than the V-6.

Miatas are light, so it doesn't take much change in weight to affect handling. On the other hand, there are a lot of SB Ford powered Miatas that still handle very well. The 3.8L is lighter than a SB Ford. The Rover/Olds/Buick aluminum V-8 adds no significant weight to the car, but is best accompanied by some power upgrades.

It's not wise to ignore good advice, but the people telling you this can't be done are wrong................Al English

And-

The 3.8l GN and the Camaro have little in common except displacement. The only thing these engines share with the 3.4l design wise is 6 cylinders. Twisted 5.7 and I are using the 3.4l engine because its 60* split leaves a lot of extra room for large manifolds and turbos. The 3.8l will be wider (not sure how wide).

So apperently, the V8 idea or a 3.4 seem like a better route than the 3.8, from what i'm getting out of it. Thanks guys.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Thanks Lim. I did what i should have done in the first place- asked this question on a Miata message board. I was told that it's not very complicated to perform and that several people have done it. One guy on the board is swapping in a turbo'd 3.4 liter V6. They seem to think that it's a good idea, whereas people here seem to think i'm retarded.

Here are two responses-



And-


So apperently, the V8 idea or a 3.4 seem like a better route than the 3.8, from what i'm getting out of it. Thanks guys.

You read what you want to read. What he's telling you is that there is a silly amount of work and money involved, but it can be done if you want to, and have the resources. No one told you it couldn't be done - just that it would be a poor allocation of monetary and labor resources, for minimal gain. I stand by that statement.