GMs cuts have been announced

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

12 assembly plants to close between US and Canada... many other plants effected too - like 4 plants in Southeast Michigan.

30,000 workers to be laid off.

The ripple effects will be huge. Every 1 GM job represents 6 other jobs from supporting industries and suppliers.

In related news... I heard a staggering statistic... GM plant workers earn 60% more than average for their line of work. Disgusting - how did they ever let the UAW become so powerful? They've basically run this company into the ground, and they have nothing but their own greed to blame for this.

[Red20170]

Disgusting - how did they ever let the UAW become so powerful? They've basically run this company into the ground, and they have nothing but their own greed to blame for this.

So it's the evil unions...
Can you look at those union folks that got laid off and call them greedy?
What's wrong with a job that pays well? Offers good health care and retirement plan? Those are the factors I look for me and my family.. It's not just GM that is suffering this fate. The fact is that the American middle class workers and jobs can not compete with cheap overseas labor and services. It is a shame that we use to set the standard of living. Now India, Mexico and communist China do it for us.

GM plant workers earn 60% more than average for their line of work

10 Dollars 15 Dollars an hour.... What is the average?


Your profile says: Business consultant for a major home loan lender.
If the union didn't fight for those guys to have a good salary. How do you expect them to afford a home? Which gives the "major home lender" business. Which gives the "Business consultant" a job.

This isn't a flame toward you. I've seen too many of my coworkers get laid off. Because someone in Bombay can answer calls for 5 dollars a day and no healthcare.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

I'll reply to the majority of your post later - but for now I'll just address the hourly wage question. A beginning wage in a GM UAW plant is about $24 an hour. Skilled workers with seniority will commonly see 6 figure incomes.

[wolfdogs]

you hit the nail on the head with the suppliers, many of them will go under...

now..on another note, if there is a Delphi Strike,........ GM uses Delphi components in every single vehicle architecture.....and a strike would essentially shut down every GM plant in North America......and quickly.

[Z Ya Later]

I'll reply to the majority of your post later - but for now I'll just address the hourly wage question. A beginning wage in a GM UAW plant is about $24 an hour. Skilled workers with seniority will commonly see 6 figure incomes.

And your point is? What's wrong with being able to support a family and let your wife take care of the home and kids? Try living in their shoes and complaining about it.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

And your point is? What's wrong with being able to support a family and let your wife take care of the home and kids? Try living in their shoes and complaining about it.

You don't need to earn 6 figures to take care of a family, Steven.

A lot of good those over-inflated salaries are doing them now, right?

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

I thought about how I would reply to this all day. Then I remembered no one ever changes their mind based on reading internet threads - they just get mad.

I've been in a supervisory role in a GM plant, and I've graduated with both an econ and management degree... I'm fairly well qualified on this subject. You don't have to listen to me if you don't want to - but it's really very simple. In a global market place, you CAN NOT be competitive when you are paying your workers 60% more than average. Unless of course, they're giving you 60% more work than average - and that just ain't happening.

Anyone who wants to point fingers and complain about how unfair it is that other countries will do these jobs for $5 an hour, you can go ahead and complain. It won't change anything. The fact is these opportunities are out there for companies, and if you don't take advantage of it, your competitor will. Life is hardly ever fair, and complaining hardly ever breeds success.

This has already gotten longer than it needed to be or than I wanted it to be... think what you want, I really don't care. Just a question to ponder...

If UAW was really so concerned about keeping these $30,000 jobs, why wouldn't they agree to work for a paycut equivalent to the monetary amount spared by the layoffs?

[94 formula]

Jay I completely agree with you and have a few things to add. Unions did have there place but are no longer needed in this modern era. Until not to long ago most men went to the local factory got a job and thats how they supported their family they didn't have much of a choice of where to work and having a strong union to back them up was a good thing, but today there are plenty of choices out there and if someone does not like the conditions or pay of their job they can just get another job and that includes unskilled laborers. Today unions not only put a huge burdon on the company but they many times cause very bad relationships between managment and union employees which hurts the work place. Employers are not able to reward those for working hard and take away from those who don't. This is picked up on by everyone and even very hard working individuals are brought down by this. I worked in a factory this past summer as seasonal help but was a part of the Teamsters Union there and even being a member I felt like it was the biggest load of crap you could imagine. I could literally go into work and be the most unproductive piece of s### imagineable and was untouchable because the union was there to back me up. All I had to do was show up on time and do what I was told but I didn't have to get it done in any certain time, you could literally spend your entire shift doing something that should take an hour. I didn't do this and worked as hard as I could but many of the guys in the plant literally did about 3 hours of work in there 8 hours there and the company can't do anything about it and they can't reward those who do work hard. I finally had enough of it and left that job to work for a branch of United Van Lines which is a moving company. There was no union there and I took a pay cut from $12.50 at the factory to $8.50 at the moving company and every week I brought home a much larger check from the moving company and worked less hours and that doesn't include averaging around $250 a week in tips. The reason I did was I was rewarded for hard work which you can't do in a union. I'd do a job rated for 8 hours and do it in 4 then take another 8 hour job in the same day and my boss had no problem paying me for 16hrs and many times bumped it up even a little more since my team always got great feedback from the shippers. I'd have never gotten that in a union. All of the workers there had better attitudes and worked harder because they could make more. Unions cause laziness plain and simple and that hurts a company like its not funny. If you offer someone $15 an hour or $30 an hour to do the same job after a month or so they're still gonna gripe about it, be unhappy, and do the least amount of work possible without getting in trouble, but if they are payed on incentives such as you make $15 an hour but you get more if you can make X amount of products in this time then they will work harder and unions hinder that.

[Z Ya Later]

You don't need to earn 6 figures to take care of a family, Steven.

A lot of good those over-inflated salaries are doing them now, right?

Ever try taking care of a family? Esp. on one income? Esp. when the cost of living is as high as it is out here? 6 figures makes it a lot easier to do.



P.S. - Don't ever...EVER...call me Steven again.

[wolfdogs]

Ever try taking care of a family? Esp. on one income? Esp. when the cost of living is as high as it is out here? 6 figures makes it a lot easier to do.



P.S. - Don't ever...EVER...call me Steven again.

my wife has not worked since 2000.............im the sole source of income... im not at 6 figures yet, and this area around Washington DC is one of the highest in the country for cost of living...taxes on everything.... when Kenny was alive, Mary worked, and she had too....but my salary was a little less back then...

times have gotten tough for sure.... sometimes i wonder how somebody working at wal mart or bank tellers, making less than 40k a year can even survive in areas like DC metroplex, LA, Hawaii, and other high cost areas....

but 6 figures is a lot of money...you dont even make that till you hit step 10 GS-15 in the Govt.....and along with that comes alot of responsibility....

I dont know folks.....its a mess

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Ever try taking care of a family? Esp. on one income? Esp. when the cost of living is as high as it is out here? 6 figures makes it a lot easier to do.



P.S. - Don't ever...EVER...call me Steven again.

Who the hell cares if it makes it easier to raise a family when the pay rate is so high that it drives the friggin company underwater???? That's right STEVE, in case you haven't heard, GM is in real trouble. This is not some greedy corporation taking advantage of its workers. They are in real trouble. Jesus, man, think bigger. If your company is out of business, you're out of a job. Plain and simple.

It's the same thing with these 30,000 job cuts. If the UAW wanted to save those jobs, they would accept a $5/hr paycut (or whatever it took) to save the same amount of money as the job cuts do. But the fact is, they won't take that paycut to save those jobs because they are too greedy and want to retain the over-inflated salaries for the rest of the workers.

As for your argument about the cost of living in California, there is something in a UAW contract called C.O.L.A. Do you know what COLA stands for? Cost Of Living Adjustment. Yes, you need to earn more money in California in order to have the same standard of living as someone in the South or Midwest... workers are compensated for that. To the rest of the country, 6 figures is a load of money. Especially when it's for a repetitive, manufacturing, factory-type job.

I've already gotten more involved in this "discussion" than I want to be... I'm cutting myself off. If you don't agree then fine. From here on out, I seriously could not care less... because you want to argue some idealistic stance without any statistics, experience, or education to back it up.

[Crazy Canuk]

I am from Southren Ontario and the GM layoffs affect 2 plants in my area also.

I also am no fan of unions. The goverment here has set up stuff that takes care of workers and thats is the labour board. Unions more often then not hurt a company and alianate the workers from management. They work more for the people who should be fired and not hard enough for the people trying to work hard and infact sometimes make it uncomfortable for those who realy do work hard because they make others look bad.

We have 2 main steel mills in my area both were about even years ago, the main diffrence is one has a union and one dosn't. The unionized plant is on the verge of being liquidated today the other now is one of the most profitable in N.A.

Up here I actuly saw the auto workers union actuly defend GM's desission for the layoffs and blamed forgin compatition.

Getting the most for workers is a great concept but I would rather have a secure job in a strong company and get paid 10k less a year then in a place where there bairly getting by.

I am a Engineer (you can tell by my spelling ) and I get paid alot less then the average labourer in the shop. They see my nice car and clothes and think that that I must be getting paid a ton of cash. They forget to think about the time and money they spend in bars and out. A big problem out there is everyone is thinking about what they don't have now and don't save or budget. The smart thing to do is save as much as you can so later on life will be easyer.

The above is just the common mindset in people today. Now specific to GM. They have the general public thinking that asian cars are way better and the fact that they arn't dosn't matter it's all about perception. They need to launch a good pr campain and show how unfair the asian markets (namely japan) is to North Amarican imports.

Long post but thats my 2 cents

[Red20170]

Then I remembered no one ever changes their mind based on reading internet threads - they just get mad.

Not me... I asked the questions because you sound like an Intelligent person to have a conversation with. I enjoy debating with you and others.

If you worked for GM. Then you sure have more specific knoledge about the GM matter than me. When you said "Disgusting" I saw it as what's wrong with workers in general not just GM wanting good pay benefits etc. Thats what sets us apart from the rest.

Life is hardly ever fair, and complaining hardly ever breeds success.

Very true.....

Anyone who wants to point fingers and complain about how unfair it is that other countries will do these jobs for $5 an hour, you can go ahead and complain. It won't change anything.

I'm not complaining But like I said before
It is a shame that we (USA) use to set the standard of living. Now India, Mexico and communist China do it for us.

In a global market place, you CAN NOT be competitive when you are paying your workers 60% more than average. Unless of course, they're giving you 60% more work than average - and that just ain't happening.

I don't disagree at all. Infact I bet the majority of off shore labor would consider the majority of American jobs salaries inflated. Thats the problem... It just really bothers me to watch this country's workforce go down the tube. So we can enjoy having cheap products. I guess I have more of an isolationist attitude toward our country than most.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

I just want to clarify that my beef about this situation is not directed at the workers themselves or their familes... especially not the ones that lost thier jobs.

My beef is with the leadership of the UAW. These workers intrust a lot in the leadership of the union. These leaders are supposed to be intelligent and have the best interest of the company and its employees at heart... they've let everyone down here.

[Red20170]

have the best interest of the company and its employees at heart... they've let everyone down here.

Well put....