paging steve and joe

[96z28]

I know that both of you have gn's so i wanted to ask a few things. I was lookin at gn's and the prices are very expensive around here. I've heard talk about regal t-types and i wonder what the differences are. Could i make a regular regal or a t-type look like a gn-x?

[Z Ya Later]

You can make any Regal LOOK like a GNX, but that's about it. If you want the performance, you're gonna need to start with at least a T-Type/Type-T (depends on the year) and still have a decent budget. As far as cost goes, Grand National's are not cheap, they are a collector's car.

As for the differences between the T cars and the GNs, they're pretty much identical performance-wise. Same motor, tranny, suspension, etc. The differences are the wheels, color choices, interiors and the rear decklid. Obviously, the GN's came in black...black...and only black. Heck, you could get them in any color you want...as long as its black . The T cars, however, were available in any color (some have told me that black wasn't offered on the T cars, but I'm not sure). Both received special wheels, but the GN wheels were different (and looked better IMHO). The T cars' interiors were pretty much the same as a regular Regal, I believe, with the exception of the "T" badges. The GN's, on the other hand, received special black and gray interiors, special interior badges, etc. Also, the GN's received the extra "lip" on the rear decklid, the T cars did not.

If you're looking for a Turbo Regal on a budget, a T car will be the way to go. But, if you've got the extra money, go for the GN. You won't be sorry .

[Joe 1320]

Yes, you could get black on T-Type. Some T-Types came with aluminum rear drums, aluminum radiator support and lightweight bumper supports. Enough of a weight savings that the T-Types could be optioned out to be a little quicker than a GN. My 86 GN has been done over to be a GNX clone:

[96z28]

so if I found a T-type all i would need to do is get gnx front fenders, paint it back get the gnx wheels, and get the lip on the trunk as far as exterior goes?

[Z Ya Later]

so if I found a T-type all i would need to do is get gnx front fenders, paint it back get the gnx wheels, and get the lip on the trunk as far as exterior goes?

Yes and no. The GNX didn't have different feners, the GN fenders were cut and louvers were added. Places like Kirban Performance sell them. But, as far as the exterior goes, yes, that's all. But, the wheels aren't cheap. A good set of replicas from GBodyParts will run you nearly $2000 for them. People used to get a set of GTA front wheels and use those, but Classic Industries has stopped selling them, so you'll have to hunt around for someone else making them.

Hey Joe, did you do the GNX rear suspension conversion? Or are you using the stock 4-link setup?

[Joe 1320]

Yes and no. The GNX didn't have different feners, the GN fenders were cut and louvers were added. Places like Kirban Performance sell them. But, as far as the exterior goes, yes, that's all. But, the wheels aren't cheap. A good set of replicas from GBodyParts will run you nearly $2000 for them. People used to get a set of GTA front wheels and use those, but Classic Industries has stopped selling them, so you'll have to hunt around for someone else making them.

Hey Joe, did you do the GNX rear suspension conversion? Or are you using the stock 4-link setup?

I have the GNX rear cover but didn't convert it to the GNX 4 link. I use the factory 4 link, relocation brackets and airbags. It hooks just as well but I didn't spend 2K for the conversion. I did like that cast GNX rear differential cover so I had to get that, the rest I figured out with budget in mind.

For those that want the ultimate GN combo without getting a GNX, start with a GN. There will be less of a conversion. Grab the aluminum rear drums, aluminum radiator support and bumper supports and add them to the GN. All that is left is the fender vents and flairs (available at many different venders), Turbo T/A or GTA wheels and you're darned close. GNXs didn't have the regular fender and rear deck badges, they had their own GNX badge on the front grill and rear deck. The gauge cluster on the GNX is a seperate part, there are a few places that reporduce them. That is about it. There are lots of technical differences, but for visuals you're about there. You could start with a T-Type, but them there is all kinds of extra stuff you'll have to convert for the GNX look so you may as well start with a GN.

[Z Ya Later]

I have the GNX rear cover but didn't convert it to the GNX 4 link.

The GNX didn't come with a 4-link, remember? The UCAs were taken off and replaced with a torque arm with an extra cross-brace and a panhard setup was installed, making it very similar to the 4th Gen rear suspension, as a referrence for those who don't know.

I use the factory 4 link, relocation brackets and airbags. It hooks just as well but I didn't spend 2K for the conversion. I did like that cast GNX rear differential cover so I had to get that, the rest I figured out with budget in mind.

Some have also said that you can use a larger rear sway-bar to accomplish a similar effect as the airbags. Any truth to this?

For those that want the ultimate GN combo without getting a GNX, start with a GN. There will be less of a conversion. Grab the aluminum rear drums, aluminum radiator support and bumper supports and add them to the GN. All that is left is the fender vents and flairs (available at many different venders), Turbo T/A or GTA wheels and you're darned close. GNXs didn't have the regular fender and rear deck badges, they had their own GNX badge on the front grill and rear deck. The gauge cluster on the GNX is a seperate part, there are a few places that reporduce them. That is about it. There are lots of technical differences, but for visuals you're about there. You could start with a T-Type, but them there is all kinds of extra stuff you'll have to convert for the GNX look so you may as well start with a GN.

If you really wanna get trick with the rear brakes, you could always convert them to disc. Stainless Steel Brakes make a nice conversion kit that I'm looking at getting the near future. Also, www.gnxdash.com makes a nice GNX dash kit as well as some other custom dashes for the GN.

[Joe 1320]

The GNX didn't come with a 4-link, remember? The UCAs were taken off and replaced with a torque arm with an extra cross-brace and a panhard setup was installed, making it very similar to the 4th Gen rear suspension, as a referrence for those who don't know.



Some have also said that you can use a larger rear sway-bar to accomplish a similar effect as the airbags. Any truth to this?



If you really wanna get trick with the rear brakes, you could always convert them to disc. Stainless Steel Brakes make a nice conversion kit that I'm looking at getting the near future. Also, www.gnxdash.com makes a nice GNX dash kit as well as some other custom dashes for the GN.

Disks may be a bad thing for a GN, I'll tell you why. Disks are good at slowing down, but are not too good at hold a car still. Drums have the advantage of being able to hold more torque for launching under boost. With disks the car may move or tires may spin before you can build boost.

Forgot about the torque arm. Too many cars.......................and old age gets me.

Big sway bars help, similar to airbags too. There is more than one way to do it. The drag swaybars are over the top for street use though. Airbags are helpful when running serious tires to help prevent any intereferance with fender lips and such on a violent launch or when adding a few buddies in the back seat for a cruise. The relocation brackets do wonders for planting the tires.

[Z Ya Later]

I was looking at the reloc. brackets, as well as the reinforcement plates for the frame LCA mount. I think I have them on my list of parts to buy. I'm seriously considering converting the MAF to the LT1/LS1 MAF and ridding myself of the OEM MAF problems.

Honestly, I've always thought disc brakes to be better than drums all the way around. I would think they would hold better than the drums at a dead stop. I guess I'll just see how well the car stops once I do the vacuum brake conversion.

Speaking of which, that's one thing you'll need to be careful with if you get a Turbo Regal...the Powermaster unit. When they work, they work great. But if they have any problem, your car can become a missile. Your brakes will become extremely hard to use (think 500 lb. leg-press using one leg). Some people have PM units last forever, others (like me) have gone through a couple in a matter of months. One option is the vacuum conversion, which I will be doing soon. Its pretty easy, takes only a couple hours and drops the maintenance cost. Just a thought.

[fastTa]

I was looking at the reloc. brackets, as well as the reinforcement plates for the frame LCA mount. I think I have them on my list of parts to buy. I'm seriously considering converting the MAF to the LT1/LS1 MAF and ridding myself of the OEM MAF problems.

Honestly, I've always thought disc brakes to be better than drums all the way around. I would think they would hold better than the drums at a dead stop. I guess I'll just see how well the car stops once I do the vacuum brake conversion.

Speaking of which, that's one thing you'll need to be careful with if you get a Turbo Regal...the Powermaster unit. When they work, they work great. But if they have any problem, your car can become a missile. Your brakes will become extremely hard to use (think 500 lb. leg-press using one leg). Some people have PM units last forever, others (like me) have gone through a couple in a matter of months. One option is the vacuum conversion, which I will be doing soon. Its pretty easy, takes only a couple hours and drops the maintenance cost. Just a thought.

I forgot to tell you last night that I had worked on a few 85-87's and those Powermaster systems are a nightmare. All 3 that we had over at the shop had multiple problems. Bad pumps, pressure switch failures, bad motors, accumulators that wouldn't hold a charge, you name it.

I think the booster conversion would be a very smart thing to do. If you wanted to really get trick, they make some nice hydroboosted kits as well. Hydroboost brake setups work phenomenal.

We put one on a 86 and also converted the rear brakes to disc. Disc brakes work so much better than drums. So they would hold better than drums on the line building boost. Most of the braking comes from the front anyway. Plus you shouldn't be leaning on the converter while you are building boost anyway.

You guys should also look into a 2 step to assist in building boost at the line. You pre-set a specific RPM you want the 2 step to hold the motor at, then it cuts spark to to stragetically determined cylinders and that in turn puts raw fuel into the exhaust thus providing much more energy to spool the compressor faster and harder. They work really well.

[Joe 1320]

We put one on a 86 and also converted the rear brakes to disc. Disc brakes work so much better than drums. So they would hold better than drums on the line building boost. .

I would be interested in seeing exactly what conversion you did. The general concensus of the gn owners is that disks don't hold as well as drums on a boost launch unless an all out high dollar baer kit was used. Got any pics and test results? There are 12" B-body conversions for the front, Baer 4 wheel disk conversions that won't allow stock wheels, technically there are lots of upgrades. It's tough to beat long shoe'd drums for holding boost. There are tons of examples cutting 1.4 60' times off the foot brake with drums. Even better, a trans brake. If there were indeed a 4 wheel disk conversion that fit factory wheels it would be worth a look see.

[fastTa]

I would be interested in seeing exactly what conversion you did. The general concensus of the gn owners is that disks don't hold as well as drums on a boost launch unless an all out high dollar baer kit was used. Got any pics and test results? There are 12" B-body conversions for the front, Baer 4 wheel disk conversions that won't allow stock wheels, technically there are lots of upgrades. It's tough to beat long shoe'd drums for holding boost. There are tons of examples cutting 1.4 60' times off the foot brake with drums. Even better, a trans brake. If there were indeed a 4 wheel disk conversion that fit factory wheels it would be worth a look see.

I've actually done 2 rear disc conversions on a G-body. There are tons of brake converion kits out there for G-body's(since most GM rotors are interchangeable), but we chose to use the SSBC kit. It comes with everything, hardware, caliper mounts, parking brake, the works. The kit we used had 11" rotors. That's all you need for the back, since like I said, roughly 80% of the braking force is applied to the front brakes. And it let's you keep the stock wheels.

Given that, whether or not you have drums or discs in the back has very little to with the holding power on the line. That has mostly to do with the front brakes. But, the rear discs certainly do not hurt. And also like I said, experienced drag racers do not lean hard on the converter when bulding boost.

The rear disc conversions on the G-body's really shine on the street. We test drove both of Don's cars(one is a Turbo T ), and the car performed so much better in turns and quick stops. Even the parking brake held much better.

[Joe 1320]

Given that, whether or not you have drums or discs in the back has very little to with the holding power on the line. That has mostly to do with the front brakes. But, the rear discs certainly do not hurt. And also like I said, experienced drag racers do not lean hard on the converter when bulding boost..

Wrong, wrong, wrong..... This is where I completely and respectfully disagree. Try to hold boost with front brakes only. You'll spin like a mother but go nowher, you won't put a load against the engine and therefore, no boost. Technically, to launch a turbo buick, you don't even need front brakes. A killer holding rear set does all that you would need. If you drag raced a turbo Buick then you would understand this. The rear brakes are used to brake torque and hold boost. No, we don't hold it for 15 or 20 seconds while the other guy stages. Rear disk conversions that hold boost as well as drums must be a new item. Guys have bitched about disks not holding brake torques as well as drums for almost 20 years, something must be new and improved. Long shoes and aluminum drums have been the drag racing choice for 15 years. For street stopping power I completley agree, 4 wheel disks are the ticket as the pure stopping power of a stock GN system is scary at best.

Kevin, own one for any length of time and you'll understand how they perform. Just doing work for others or taking a joyride is nothing compared to years of testing, building and tuning these cars. They don't drive like anything else that I can remember. If you drive it like you would a typical V8, you will not drive the car anywhere near it's potential. 15 years of dealing with these cars gives you a unique experince. Again, let's agree to disagree.

[fastTa]

The only thing that separates a rear drum turbo Buick from any other rear drum turbo car is th fact that the buick's came with crappy rear drums and there was not much bias to the rear. The stock return spring is weak, the quick take up master cylinder is problematic (especially for the rear), the stock combination valve was a problem, and the primary shoes don't do a very good job as they are too short. And you thought I didn't know B-body's.

Turbo Buick guys have tried forever to shortcut around the rear braking problem. They have tried going to a longer primary shoe, switching to a heavy duty return spring, gusseting the pads, you name it. All they were doing was wasting their time and trying to save a buck. What they really needed to do was spend the coin to convert to rear discs. There is no arguing over whether or not disc brakes can hold better than drums. Discs win everytime. Not to mention the drums are horribly heavy and all that weight is rotating mass as well. Not the ticket for low ET of the day. Any smart B-body drag racer has already dumped the drums and gone to discs.

Other than that if a guy is still having a problem with breaking the tires loose while making boost at the line, then either of two things are wrong. He is either leaning on the converter to hard or needs a looser converter.

On a turbo car the obvious way to go is with a trans brake. You can make a bunch of boost with a 2 step on the trans brake. Then you don't even have to worry about the rear brakes.

[Z Ya Later]

First off, Kev, its a G-body

Second, Joe is right, Turbo Regals are a different beast in many respects compared to other vehicles. Modding and tuning one is a pretty different from others...you can't just throw parts at it and expect it to make miraculous gains.

However, I'm not sure if I would trust drums over discs myself, no offense Joe. Granted, I've never tried larger shoes and the aluminum drums, and I'm sure that's better than stock. But, I would think the Baer or SSBC rear disc kits would hold just as good or better than the drums. Wouldn't the clamping force of the disc caliper hold better than the spreading force of the shoes? I'm asking, not trying to put you down .

Just my 2 pennies...dingy as they may be lol