Turn and run

[TraceZ]

Suppose we turn and run.


First, the extremists claim a huge victory and get a giant motivational boost. In the following weeks or months the Iraqi government collapses. Sectarian violence, funded in large by Iran would take over the county in a bloody civil war. New terror training camps would be set up, fueled by the confidence that the Americans are vulnerable and weak. The extremists hate for Israel and the west won’t go away, it will be boosted by the celebrations of the recent victory. More attack plans will be written up, more resources will be stockpiled. More fighters will be trained, the hate will continue to be spread. Iran will begin to move into Iraq in an effort to control all of Persia.

But we’ll have to let it be, because we can’t risk going back due to the lack of resolve shown by the American people. Assuming we do nothing militarily to destroy Iran’s nuclear ambitions and they continue on to manufacture nuclear weapons, is there any doubt Iran would slip a nuclear device into the hands of terrorists? They already supply them with everything else.

So now we have a second 9/11, only this time it is a nuclear explosion in a densely populated western city. A city gone, possibly in Israel, Maybe in Europe, maybe here in the USA. Imagine the body count. Imagine the global economic repercussions. Imagine a world wide depression.

This is where we take off the gloves. Now we are looking at an all out world war. Europe, Israel and the USA –vs- all Islamic states that wish to oppose us. By now Iran has taken over Iraq. Oil comes into short supply. There are long lines at empty gas pumps. People can not drive to work. Trucks cannot get food to market. The economy grinds to a halt. Times begin to look very desperate as a global economic depression compounded by a major energy shortage strangles all of humanity.


How far will the American public let my hypothetical timeline get before they wake up and see we have no choice but to stay involved in the Middle East? I see political hatred clouding peoples minds to the point they are willing to risk a global catastrophe just so they can claim a political victory!!

[raroZ28]

So true.

Everybody hates on Bush for sending troops to Iraq. Nobody made those people join the military, they did it because they wanted to, and they agreed to report to duty when called upon.

[Jeff_in_Atl]

About 2 months ago the democrats were complaining about the war and Iraq and they were saying we should have sent more troops over there. Now the president comes out and says OK we will send more troops over there. Now the democrats are saying no. Wait a minute they just got through saying we should now they are saying they shouldn't. Can you say flip flop?

It is so obvious that the democrats are doing everything they can to get us the US to loose in Iraq just so they can say that if you let the republicans run the show they will make the US loose. So you better not vote for a republican because they will make us loose. All of this is the democrats effort to try and get elected so they can be in power. It's a power struggle and the media is doing everything they can to help the democrats. It's very hard for me to believe that people can fall for what the democrats are doing. Can people really be this gullible? Apparently so.

Don't get me wrong, I have some serious beefs with the republicans trying to control the population with their religious belief not to mention the growth of government and spending they have brought about. But right now the war on Islamic fundamentalist is a life and death situation that has to be priority one. This war would have gone a lot better if the world had been united in fighting this virus.

[Rhode Island Red]

hmm grim scenario you paint. Nuclear attacks are big and flashy, but wouldn't you think poisoning or food/water supply would be more effective/kill more people than a nuke for a 2nd 9/11 scenario? Better yet you on the tip of the Iceberg of a much, much bigger problem. I divest from your core post to give you a larger piece of the problem your post is highlighting so I apologize if it sidetracks the original intent of the thread.

You are almost in line with the top thinkers of the G-8, for how events will unfold... but not grim enough I'm afraid to say their outlook (not mine) in the next 10-20 years is this: With the advent of technology, countries can have entire portions of their population, that never have to learn to speak the language/customs/ or even basic culture interacting within the very country they inhabit. What is more scary due to technology, is that they live in country A, but have no loyalty to county A, but only loyal to their way of life (think of the France Muslim riots in summer 2006, it wasn't just about unemployment). What the G-8 thinkers are thinking is that this section of the population, will reach a point where they will, in a time of war, will not help that country to survive, in matter of fact, and will start to become dominant culture thus self destroying country A, from within. Country A would be powerless to stop this... This country A represents, Great Britan, France, Japan, Phillipines, and the USA! - in short a Global war is easily foreseeable and their is nothing we can do about it as the events that will start it are already in motion

on a side note this might prove good to ponder over -

Fact: That part of the world has been fighting with each other longer than written language been around. The religions have changed over the millenniums, from baal to allah, and others. War, retribution for killing/ stealing or whatever has been their way of life for 8,000+ years. Fighting americans/killing all jews in existence is merely an excuse to continue what they've always done.

Question: Do you think us heroic Americans are really going to in a few short years do what they haven't accomplished in 8000 years? the answer is a resounding NO! Bush knew that before we'd head to Iraq it it would be a Quagmire/ guerrilla hit-and run war-type scenario, but at the same time, from learning doing nothing (a la Isolationism aka Pearl Harbor attacks that resulted) will still cause us to get sucked in... so the answer that will solve everything is not clearly defined.

Better question: Who does bush surround himself with (cabinet) to get advice that he makes his decisions with which caused us to get into this quagmire of a dilemma of dealing with an fight/war/kill based society

[TraceZ]

Fact: That part of the world has been fighting with each other longer than written language been around. The religions have changed over the millenniums, from baal to allah, and others. War, retribution for killing/ stealing or whatever has been their way of life for 8,000+ years

Question: Do you think us heroic Americans are really going to in a few short years do what they haven't accomplished in 8000 years? the answer is a resounding NO! Bush knew that before we'd head to Iraq it it would be a Quagmire/ guerrilla hit-and run war-type scenario, but at the same time, from learning doing nothing (a la Isolationism aka Pearl Harbor attacks that resulted) will still cause us to get sucked in... so the answer that will solve everything is not clearly defined.

Better question: Who does bush surround himself with (cabinet) to get advice that he makes his decisions with which caused us to get into this quagmire of a dilemma of dealing with an fight/war/kill based society

What you say may be true, but it does not have any impact in the timeline I posted above. It doesnt change a thing! Islamic culture has been warring for thousands of years, that is true. BUT, they have not actively made it their goal to destroy western society until fairly recently. THAT is what we are responding to and need to continue to respond to. There is no answer to this problem that will stabilize the middle east and allow our troops to withdraw. What does that mean? That means we are in it for the long haul.

or.. we turn and run. (see above)

[Jeff_in_Atl]

RIR...I don't think anyone knew that it would be a "quagmire" in Iraq if we took Sadaam out. To say that Bush knew it would be is an awfully big assumption.

There is evidence that some areas of the middle east that the people are smart enough to see a better way than the religious hatred killing ways of the last several thousand years. For example Qatar is a thriving country. The women don't wear head scarves and are allowed to drive. It's turning into the vacation spot of the middle east. They are building an underwater hotel. Turkey is I think 97% Muslim yet they have a democratic form of government. They have a parliament that votes just like in the US. So why can Turkey and Qutar make the transition and Iraq can't? You do know that 50 years ago Iraq was a democracy too. Does everyone there have amnesia?

[Rhode Island Red]

Trace, did you read my update to my post?

yeah, I think we're on the same page , just look at different puzzle pieces. Looks like WWW III is inevitable Muslim vs western-based societies - Where they won't be happy until the entire planet is 100% muslim based. This conflict we got into, has no peaceful resolution, only one where blood will be spilled like nothing on a scale mankind hasn't witnessed in out lifetimes.

Jeff, I can see your viewpoint. I do see there is hope in the storm clouds that shadow that region. I feel that as long as Iran's religious leaders are controlling the strings to the conflicts over there, and if they are not stopped, any decent countries, and people's will still eventually be enveloped if nothing is done. Iran fanaticism seems to be a cancer, if it won't be healed, it will quickly spread. That's why my scales of peace vs war are leaning towards war right now.

Hopefully I am wrong and peace will manage to take hold

[Jeff_in_Atl]

Hopefully I am wrong and peace will manage to take hold

I hope so too.

Unfortunately I don't think that cancer called Iran can be cured. It will have to be eradicated.

[FroSSty]

The sad thing is that it will take another tragedy like 9/11 to wake people up to the fact that we must do whatever it takes to wipe out these extremists...Why don't people understand that we haven't had a serious terrrorist attack like 9/11 since we have sent troops to that area? Can't they put the 2 together?

It makes me sick to my stomach to think about the world my children will have to deal with. This country seems to be getting worse by the minute as far as political power and control of the government, not to mention the blood sucking bottom feeding media outfits: "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."
- Sir Winston Churchill...

[Joe 1320]

Just to set the record straight, it's not Islam against the rest of the world, it's Radicalized Islamic followers that are causing the problem. There are certain radicalized leaders that brainwash the impressionable in order to send them out to do their bidding. Much of Islamic culture is peaceful, what spoils the whole thing is power hungry criminals who use religion as a guise for conquest.

And yes, our government knew that taking out Saddam would cause huge problems. The reality is that our government sought to draw a line in the sand rather than draw a line at our borders. The plan was to draw those that wanted a piece of us out in the open and make their stand over there..... while we already had a large military presence active there. Those that hate us would be drawn to the area like flies on chit so that the battle was localized. Believe it or not, it's a sound military stradegy. The problem is that the US public and government doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to do battle on the same terms as the militants, their stradegy for handling guerilla tactics is weak. You can bet that civil war in Iraq was something that our government was counting on, the idea is that the radicalized factions would spend their time killing off each other until there was little if anything left, then the remaining militants could be dealt with as a single remaining entitiy.

Our solution in WWII was to drop a couple of nukes on entire cities and let god sort everything out. While I don't necessirily support that kind of destruction, it certainly saved alot of time and lives for our side. The only way there will be peace in the region is when the local population becomes sick to death of the violence created by their own leaders, whomever that may be. It's already happening to some degree, that's where the tips regarding location of militant activity comes from. Just last month, residents saw someone walking away from a mini van that exploded in a terrorist type attack. A crowd of angry civilians cornered him, decended upon him and beat the crap out of him, killing the slimeball. In essence, it is ethnic civil war, not government civil war and that's bad. Government can be restructured, different leaders can be elected but the ethnic hate cannot be changed as easily, if at all.

Until radicalised Islamists are extinguished there will be no peace in the world, they are bent on conquest. Until ethnic hatered is extinguished, there will be no peace in the region. It's a function of their society. What is an interesting thought is wait until some radical islamist takes a poke at China or Russia. The chit will really hit the fan when a billion Chinese run across the border taking care of business, they won't be quite so nice to deal with. Maybe that needs to happen sooner than later. Personally, I would love to see the rest of the entire world take a stand against these radical nutcases and clean house once and for all. Too bad politics and greed gets in the way. Russia and China are too busy raking in profits from their business dealings to get involved. They are going to just sit back until some nutcase explodes a dirty bomb in one of their cities before they wake up and realize this is a world problem, not just a few squabbling governments.

[TraceZ]

Trace, did you read my update to my post?

I see it now, 10-4! We are indeed in the same page.