A cautionary tale . . .

[Roger in Kensington]

From one who is in a position to know:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110010438

[Rhode Island Red]

Very good article. The difficulty today for us, the general public, is telling the difference between modern propaganda and the real facts as all the media seems to be geared towards the propaganda side (except NPR's Frontline -their decent) and at the same time we see our elected officials eroding our rights, lining their pockets, now more than any time in US history.

I can tell you one thing for sure, ANY politician that passes laws that restrict our inalienable rights, take away our presumed innocence until proven guilty in a court of law by passing stronger blanket surveillance of their own constituents will be defiled and ridiculed - WE know we are at war, and that we should support our president, but how can we when the people we should support is turning our country into a police-state? WE, the citizens of this country, measure the threat of the US becoming a police-state far greater than the conflicts we are currently involved in - not to mention all the obvious pocket-lining the rich are doing, to eliminate the middle class.

[Roger in Kensington]

I can tell you one thing for sure, ANY politician that passes laws that restrict our inalienable rights, take away our presumed innocence until proven guilty in a court of law by passing stronger blanket surveillance of their own constituents will be defiled and ridiculed - WE know we are at war, and that we should support our president, but how can we when the people we should support is turning our country into a police-state? WE, the citizens of this country, measure the threat of the US becoming a police-state far greater than the conflicts we are currently involved in - not to mention all the obvious pocket-lining the rich are doing, to eliminate the middle class.

I was to see if anyone else responded, but since no one did, I want to ask three questions. I'm serious about this, as I am very curious about how others see things. So here goes:

1. Regarding only surveillance by the federal government, can you cite examples of this being turned into a police state?

2. How do you define "middle class"?

3. By what means is the middle class (as defined) being eliminated?

[wolfdogs]

I have no comment at this time.

to me....whats happening with the Hispanic invasion and destruction of the American way of life is much worse.......its out of control.

[Jeff_in_Atl]

I have no comment at this time.

to me....whats happening with the Hispanic invasion and destruction of the American way of life is much worse.......its out of control.

I second that. I don't feel at home in my home town anymore. Border security effects ever single one of us in our daily live. Wire tap laws and foreign policy do not.

It is estimated that the country of France will be gone in 20 years due to their immigration laws. It will happen here to if we don't stop it.

[Steel2686]

It is estimated that the country of France will be gone in 20 years due to their immigration laws.

Do we view this as a totally bad thing?

[Jeff_in_Atl]

Do we view this as a totally bad thing?

Yea but it will be going from Liberal (bad) to Islamic fundamentalist (worse).

[Steel2686]

Yea but it will be going from Liberal (bad) to Islamic fundamentalist (worse).

Solid point....

[FroSSty]

I second that. I don't feel at home in my home town anymore. Border security effects ever single one of us in our daily live. Wire tap laws and foreign policy do not.

It is estimated that the country of France will be gone in 20 years due to their immigration laws. It will happen here to if we don't stop it.

Unfortunately, it seems to me, that the gov. could do something about the immigration issue but aren't... SO, while we are all focused in on that problem, they know they have the chance to sneak in things like the wire tap laws (and much more)... Just little nibbles at a time. It won't be long and the small nibbles will be a huge chunk of missing rights/liberties. And it is sad but most sheeple are more concerned with Paris, Lohan and who won American Idol. (definately not saying that you, Jeff, are one of those people as I know you read up on a lot of the gov. issues, just putting that out there)

[Wild Willy]

Yes, the immigration thing is crazy- People used to want to become an 'American', they would move here and learn English and try to fit in. Now everyone is concerned with 'ethnic pride' and is a hyphenated-american- if you are so pround of being Irish, Italian, African or whatever, just go back-

I have been a customer of a local bank in upstate NY for over 20 yeras- Why do I need to press a button to get the menu in English? Isn't that the langauge of the country we are in? There is a big movement towards making all the road signs 'international' now, pictures instead of words so we won't have to deal with putting stop signs up in five langauges....?

The privacy thing is troubling, too. I have nothing to hide, but that doesn't mean that I authorize the government to snoop around, listening to my phone calls or digging through my trash- Though, no doubt, they do that to anyone they please. Land of the Free, indeed. We need to turn the FBI and the CIA on the politicians, but they never will because that is who they work for-

[Roger in Kensington]

I was to see if anyone else responded, but since no one did, I want to ask three questions. I'm serious about this, as I am very curious about how others see things. So here goes:

1. Regarding only surveillance by the federal government, can you cite examples of this being turned into a police state?

2. How do you define "middle class"?

3. By what means is the middle class (as defined) being eliminated?

I guess I'll have to answer my own questions.

1. While I am not overly trusting of our government (one of the reasons I strongly support the Second Amendment), as far as the concern over so-called "domestic warrantless wiretapping", I'm unconcerned. First, no one has presented evidence that this is occurring.

Intercepting communications that originate and terminate solely within the United States would require a warrant. Others do not and never have. If you are outside the United States and you call (or are called by) someone (in or out of the United States) who is suspected of being a terrorist, OR if you are within the United States and make a call to or receive a call from someone outside the US who is suspected of being a terrorist, you have a reasonable expectation of having your communication intercepted.

2. It is entirely possible that I am naive, but how is the "middle class" (however it is defined) being eliminated?

The Census Bureau just released its latest household income figures. As widely reported today, the median household income (for a family of four) in the United States in 2006 was $48,201; half of the households have incomes below this figure and half have incomes above it.

If you go to page 38 of this document, you can see an historical record of Mean Household Income of Quintiles (each "quintile" represents 20 percent of households).

The lowest quintile (that is, the "bottom" 20 percent) has an average annual income of $11,352. The next quintile has an average income of $28,777.

Third quintile: average $48,223
Fourth quintile: average $76,329
Fifth (top) quintile: average $168,170

3. Right below those figures, however, are figures showing that the percentage of households in the lower quintiles is slowly decreasing over time. In other words, if the middle class is being eliminated, it is because average incomes are rising, moving households into higher quintiles.

So, who is paying the income taxes? According to this information (derived from IRS data) from the National Taxpayers Union for 2004 (about the same for later years), the top 50% of income earners pay almost 97% of income taxes. The top 10% pay 68% of the income taxes.

If this is unfair, it would seem so only because the upper incomes pay a disproportionate share of the taxes.

There are, of course, other issues related to this, but IMHO it is difficult to make the case that "the rich" are "eliminating" the "middle class."