Still think ethanol is a good idea? Think again.

[Roger in Kensington]

How much is your engine worth to you?

"The Great Ethanol Scam"

[Jeff_in_Atl]

I have been avoiding ethonol since day 1. It's corrosive to aluminum.

[sneitzel]

Wow! The amount of BS in that article is amazing.

Ethanol is not the answer, but it is no where near as bad as the spin in that article makes it out to be.

[Roger in Kensington]

Wow! The amount of BS in that article is amazing.

Ethanol is not the answer, but it is no where near as bad as the spin in that article makes it out to be.

What is your evidence to the contrary?

[sneitzel]

First of all fair disclosure.
I am a chemist and I test gasoline and diesel fuel for a living.
So, temper my statements appropriately, I am not exactly speaking from an unbiased position either.

Lets start with the easy ones.

Spin...
The EPA proposal is not to "increase the amount of ethanol in our fuel to 15%" as the article incorrectly states. It is to raise the allowable limit to 15%.

Spin...
"Scott Morrison is the owner of the City Garage chain in North Texas and he related the story of his technical director's run-in with ethanol; in December he filled up his E85 Flex Fuel Chevy Suburban at the Exxon station in Ovilla, just south of Dallas. His Suburban died on the spot, because even an E85-equipped vehicle will not run on the 100% pure ethanol that Exxon station was pumping that day. In that case it was not Exxon's fault but a mistake at the distribution center, and Exxon (xom.) quickly made good for the cost of repairs."

Question. How does a mistake by the fuel distributor mean that EtOH is bad? If the distributor had delivered diesel instead it would have had the same net effect. Is diesel fuel bad too?
There is also at least a moderate exaggeration in that statement as well. 100% pure EtOH is very hard to come by. Due to a chemical interaction between EtOH and water, purifying EtOH over about 97% is extremely costly. By law, terminal locations have to denature the EtOH they stock anyway so it cannot be consumed. So at beast, the stuff at the terminal is 95%. Since the author provides no other supporting information, I would assume there was some fuel in the underground tank when the "bad" fuel was delivered and mixing the two would have further decreased the EtOH percentage. Also, 85% is the limit for E85. Most fuels do not reach that limit and in fact have much lower EtOH content. I have a feeling something else was going on here, just my opinion.

Regarding the Lexus recall, "Ethanol fuels with low moisture content will corrode the internal surface of the fuel rails."
That's an interesting statement. I'm don't want to argue with Lexus, but it interesting because if EtOH fuels have moisture problems they tend go the other way, having too much water. Hmmm....

Also interesting, "...plastic fuel intakes have been dissolved by the blending of ethanol into our gasoline..."
I have never seen a plastic that reacts with EtOH. We buy and store EtOH in plastic bottles.

Finally, "...the first of numerous future customers brought in an automobile whose fuel pump was shot. A quick diagnosis determined that that particular car had close to 18% ethanol in the fuel..."
Then later in the article, "...individuals who have had to repair their fuel systems in recent years never had the gasoline tested to see if the ethanol percentage might be the problem. Today most repair shops and new-car dealers are still not testing for ethanol blends..."

So which is it? Are mechanics testing for EtOH or not?

I can answer that. Testing for EtOH content is standard procedure in areas that are supposed to have EtOH in the fuel. Why? Because refiners depend on it to make their octane requirement. The base fuel itself usually has an octane rating around 84 and blending the 10% EtOH brings it up to the 87 range, for example. That would be one of the first things checked.
I'd also like to know what this "quick diagnosis" is. The machine we test on runs about $80K and takes approx. 30 min per sample to run not including prep time, QA samples or data analysis time.

The other thing is I don't see stories on the news about massive vehicle failures and broad sweeping recalls by automakers. The way the article describes it, we have a fuel related pandemic on our hands. EtOH blended fuels have been in place in the most densely populated cities in the US for many, many years. NY/NJ area, Chicago, Houston, Dallas/Ft. Worth, CA. All of these areas have been using EtOH blended fuels. If EtOH was destroying cars at the rate the article suggests you would have heard about it.

That's all for now.

[markd79ta]

The fuel in Colorado has 10% Ethanol.

My cars:
Buick Roadmaster 200,000 miles with no fuel related issues.
Trans Am with 106,000 miles with no fuel related issues, and that car sits for long periods of time with Ethanol blended fuel in the fuel system.
Yukon with 112,000 miles with no fuel related issues.

The biggest problem with Ethanol is its use in vehicles not configured for it. The cars can be setup for any combination of ethanol/gas as long as we stick with a formulation standard. My biggest issue is the divergent standards on fuel.

[Roger in Kensington]

sneitzel:

I appreciate an informed point of view. Thank you.

Nevertheless, ethanol in gasoline makes little sense in terms of energy savings (as has been discussed frequently on this forum). Its generous federal subsidy means it makes no economic sense, either.

Furthermore, it has been my experience that "gasohol" reduces fuel economy which is, perhaps, why states like it: More tax revenue.

On the other hand, you probably don't have to worry much about gas tank condensation anymore.

[sneitzel]

...ethanol in gasoline makes little sense in terms of energy savings (as has been discussed frequently on this forum). Its generous federal subsidy means it makes no economic sense, either.

Furthermore, it has been my experience that "gasohol" reduces fuel economy...

All true statements. Ethanol has a lower net heat of combustion than gasoline does meaning it is less efficient. However, I have never seen a claim that EtOH improves gas mileage. That's never been one of the claims.

On the flip side, burning ethanol is much cleaner than burning gasoline. The question is, do the reduced emissions offset the reduced gas mileage? Is some cases yes, in some cases no. That is why people claim the jury is still out on EtOH.

Drivability issues aside, the benefit of EtOH is that it is renewable. We can always make more. We can redesign engines as needed. We can retrofit existing engines etc. But corn based EtOH is, without a doubt, the elephant in the room. There was an article in WIRED magazine maybe a year ago talking about the future of EtOH. According to the article, the future is EtOH from biomass, ie. cellulose plant material. Biologists are trying to genetically engineer a "bug" that eats cellulose and excretes EtOH. They are close.... When that happens, the elephant goes away and the benefits really come to form. Switchgrass is talked about as a major feedstock for the process. One prediction is that 4 full crops per year could be generated from a single field.
Imagine, all those grass clippings and dead leaves and tree branches digested and made into fuel...

[Rhode Island Red]

the ethanol industry lobbied congress for multiple DECADES, payoffs and etc. to build the hype the ethanol industry has today. Diesel is more energy dense, and cars in europe regularly get 60+ mpg out of diesel. Compare that to what a prius gets. what it comes down to is $$$ and lots of it adn midland american farmers saw a potential to rake in big money if they create a new market using ethanol, the same exact thing is going on this very minute by those who are trying to create another new market... the Carbon market. Even http://www.ipcc.ch - the global warming panel says that CO2 is NOT a pollutant. First thing to do is to invent a crisis and ________ (insert new market you want to control/rake in the $ here) is the only solution (lying though your teeth) by branding (psychololgical term) your solution to the point where the public and those with money will get on board as well.
Ethanol will cause more global warming and ecological devastation as it will cause more vigin forests and land to be stripped and replanted causing a net loss of the carbon sink...not to mention engines willwear out faster with ethanol, as gasoline has lubricating properties while ethanol doesn't .

Ethanol is not perfect and hydrogen based fuel cells are a great potential but at least wean our country off energy importing from the middle east!!!!

[Roger in Kensington]

But corn based EtOH is, without a doubt, the elephant in the room. There was an article in WIRED magazine maybe a year ago talking about the future of EtOH. According to the article, the future is EtOH from biomass, ie. cellulose plant material. Biologists are trying to genetically engineer a "bug" that eats cellulose and excretes EtOH. They are close.... When that happens, the elephant goes away and the benefits really come to form. Switchgrass is talked about as a major feedstock for the process. One prediction is that 4 full crops per year could be generated from a single field.
Imagine, all those grass clippings and dead leaves and tree branches digested and made into fuel...

And imagine all the fields converted from food production to raising switchgrass. Or the fuel used to transport "all those dead leaves and clippings" to a central location for processing.

Do the "bugs" also produce CO2 in the process? If so, then one of the reasons for producing EtOH (i.e., to reduce "global warming") is sort of obviated, don't you think?

[Roger in Kensington]

Ethanol is not perfect and hydrogen based fuel cells are a great potential but at least wean our country off energy importing from the middle east!!!!

Hydrogen is produced from methane and about 70% of the methane's energy is lost in the conversion/distribution. Hydrogen also has low energy density and is difficult to transport and store. While this mitigates hydrogen's appeal as a transportation fuel, it does make stationary high temperature fuel cells (which are impractical for transportation) attractive since they can directly convert methane to hydrogen and are highly efficient (though expensive initially).

Actually, we import very little energy from the Middle East. Most of or imported oil comes from Canada and Mexico.

But your point is well taken.

[MN6WS6]

This is an interesting conversation, and it would be nice to have real hard facts backed up by science. While either side could be exaggerated, what we know for a fact is that corn-based ethanol causes more harm than good, both to the environment and to food prices.

I can tell you this though. We have a vehicle in our shop right now with burned up cats due to low fuel pressure. The Nissan technical line told the technician to put real 100% gasoline from a known station that only has that in their tanks (no 5% or 10% mix) and see what happens. The pressure picked back up to factory specifications. It's too late now as it needs about $2,400 in parts, but it backs up the original poster's hyperlink that manufacturers are finding out about these issues.

[sneitzel]

We have a vehicle in our shop right now with burned up cats due to low fuel pressure. The Nissan technical line told the technician to put real 100% gasoline from a known station that only has that in their tanks (no 5% or 10% mix) and see what happens. The pressure picked back up to factory specifications.

My question is how would having EtOH in the fuel cause that problem? I am admittedly not an expert mechanic or an engineer bit I don't see the path that connects EtOH to his problem.

It seems to me it's like an old sitcom. Nice middle class neighborhood. Johnny lived there with his stereotypical family and everyone's happy. One day, the grizzled old ex-con moves in across the street. Suddenly, Johnny's prized baseball card is missing. It had to be the ex-con right???

And imagine all the fields converted from food production to raising switchgrass. Or the fuel used to transport "all those dead leaves and clippings" to a central location for processing.

Do the "bugs" also produce CO2 in the process? If so, then one of the reasons for producing EtOH (i.e., to reduce "global warming") is sort of obviated, don't you think?

Switchgrass, or others, can be grown almost anywhere. Even in fields not capable of supporting food crops. While the possibility does exist for farmers to convert their fields it may not happen.

I don't remember anything about the bugs making CO2 but I'm guessing they do. That would need to be considered. So would the decreased work load on our existing refineries. They don't exactly have an environmentally neutral footprint. Neither does getting crude to them.

EDIT: Link to the WIRED article HERE.

In theory, (my theory in my brain) the biomass to EtOH is a much simpler process that would not require huge centralized processing centers (refineries). A system of small, localized processors could do the conversion and feed the product to a local terminals for blending and distribution.

Again, I will say I don't think EtOH is THE answer to this problem. I think EtOH has a part to play. Whether that is a permanent part or not remains to be seen.

EDIT (5/27/09) Better link to the magazine HERE.

[Dave-S]

I'll admit I am not very informed about ethanol so I'll put this in the form of a question.

I just saw this article that says to expect corn prices to increase substantially because of weather planting delays. How does the price of corn or corn shortages affect the ethanol market? The article implies it has a pretty severe affect. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/cor...siteid=yahoomy