Buick or Pontiac could be phased out....

[SS_CarGuy]

Here is part of the story as reported by Reuters today:

DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp, which issued a shock profit warning last week and has been losing market share, may phase out one of its weaker car brands if sales fail to meet projections, company Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said on Wednesday.
GM's Buick and Pontiac are both "damaged brands" due to lack of investment over the years, and GM is working to correct that with an array of new vehicles coming to market, Lutz told a Morgan Stanley automotive conference in New York.

But if some of its brands fail to meet sales projections, "then we would have to take a look at a phase-out. I hope we don't have to do that. What we've got to do is keep the brands we've got."

The whole story is here http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=7988099

[thomas]

Well I guess thats it then.........

Time to go play tag out in the interstate...............

[TraceZ]

Well, killing Pontiac would be a perfect way for GM to really show us all how screwed up they really are, as if they haven't already demonstrated that well enough. No more GTO, no possibility of a Firebird, no more GrandAm or GrandPrix.

Whatever.

The only GM cars I would even consider owning any more are a GTO or a Corvette. The last new car I bought was an 03 Caravan. It's almost like GM is led by comittee, with no single person having enough clout to make any real decisions to build any seriously new, revolutionary cars. I bet they just sit around and bicker about ideas until nothing fun is left anywhere.

I could go in there myself and do a better job. Fire the comittees. Lets build a RWD passenger car platform that is so awsome people will want to stop driving SUVs. Dodge is currently leading that charge.

[95TransAm]

Wow....haven't been to the boards in a couple days. Get on and what threads do I come across.....the camaro isn't returning and buick or pontiac may be no more.

GM has been making me happy and mad at the same time lately. Displacement on demand is awesome in my opinion. I love the fact that V8's are coming back in to a regular sedan or your everyday grocery getter, and still get decent fuel economy. I love the LS2/LS7. I remember when the ZO6 came with 405 hp and that was the most incredible thing I ever heard....now the base model gets 400hp. New ZO6 with 500hp, new GTO with 400hp, and lets not forget the CTS-V with 400hp as well.

At the same time, the loss of the F-Body, and the fact that they're not putting as much effort into a RWD platform as they should be are disappointing as well.

Hopefully there will be a turn around in sales for GM in the upcoming years, and hopefully GM will get more innovative to make this happen.

If pontiac is dropped, I've lost all hope

[markd79ta]

It is not the two GM divisions that are causing the problem; it is the marketing bean counters and the ill-advised execs that are destroying the company. If they don't build exciting new cars, then people are going to buy other stuff. Additionally, and most importantly, they fail to take care of their own. The way I look at it; if the world's largest auto manufacturer can't take care of its core loyal enthusiasts, they are not worthy of that loyalty...plain and simple. They need a wake up call. The recent canceling of the Zeta program that we talked about yesterday, with all of us patiently for those cars, is a real kick in the nuts. Lutz's pledge of "Premium" RWD cars gives me little consolation. They have "Premium" RWDs in the Cadillac division along with the SSR and the Vette. I really can't justify or afford any of them. How about "affordable" RWD cars that aren't warmed over imports. To be honest, I was more concerned about a "real" replacement for the b-body more then the f-body because my Roadmaster is getting really old with a lot of miles. I am a sixteen year veteran of owning GM cars, and I am sad to say that they have nothing, absolutely nothing, now or planned that will bring me to the dealership. I haven't bought a new car since the '97 T/A and I am ready. Since Zeta is dead, I am buying a Ford or a Chrysler. The 300C and the GT500 are looking pretty good.

Every day, I drive the new body Bonneville SSEI to work. This car has a great motor backed by some good styling, but it is horribly lacking with the FWD unibody platform. It sounds like a freshly poured bowl of Rice Krispies going down the road. The 10k I paid for it was too much. This is the flagship of Pontiac? Now the supercharged 3.8 is gone with the Northstar stuffed in there...o boy, I want that one. Pontiac's new offerings of the past few years: The Aztec? The Vibe? The Sunfire Please!!!!! Would it kill them to put out something worthwhile; what a waste of R&D and capital. Who would get excited about any of that junk? My friend just purchased a brand new Grand Prix GT. The car has so many squeaks and rattles; you would swear that it had 300,000 miles on it. The Buicks are just as bad. They needed Zeta or some combination RWD/AWD platform like the 300C. The flagships of GM are junk. The Park Avenue, Bonneville, and Impala are ridiculous cars. Oh wait, the V8 FWD Buick Lucerene should do it. There answer to Chrysler & Dodge; put the 5.3 in the FWD Impala, and give it the Lumina front end...the guys on the Dodge forum are Laughing their A$$ off right now. Now, there will be nothing to replace them for the next five years - at least five years.. GM is dead, especially if gas goes up to $3.00 a gallon in the next two years. They have nothing to sell to the police departments. There trucks are geared towards urban and suburban Americans so those are not an option for most tradesmen. I can't see the new ones being any better. And, if they put all of their stock on a flooded market segment, they are going to loose...big time! Honestly, if they keep on this road, there won't be any divisions left of GM because of them will sell cars.

[MN6WS6]

I have to agree with what a lot of people are saying on this board. However, you have to remember one thing:

GM is still the biggest manufacturer in the world.

Until they get knocked down to #2 or #3, they are not going to listen to us, because they think they are doing everything right. When Ford catches them, and both Honda and Toyota pass them, then they might realize "Hey, we need to stop building FWD BS!!"

The death of the B-body told me that GM was heading downhill. That was a great car, and you can ask anybody that owned one (I still have mine). You ask any police department, they will all tell you that the B-body was the best police car they've ever had, period. The Crown Vic can't hold a candle to the Caprice, never could. So when GM killed that, I said "uh-oh."

The F-body thing has been covered numerous times, won't go into that again.

The Zeta platform was GM's saving grace. Finally, bringing RWD cars to the masses that don't cost a fortune. Although that point could be argued. Minimum wage hasn't raised since the mid 90's, yet GM's car prices have gone up, in some cases, double. The working man can't afford a new car, because they are priced out the roof! Where I come from, 30k a year is a decent job. But on 30k, you can't cover a new car payment, a house, and whatever else your pleasure (kid, motorcycle, etc.). It just can't be done. And in this day and age of single parents and single income households, GM and all manufacturers are going to have to get their head out of their butt and give us cars that don't cost 25k and up that are reliable and still have some performance (hint: See Dodge's current line-up, or any Honda or Toyota car built in the last 10 years).

With all that said, I'm saying this. The death of the Zeta platform will lead to the death of GM. An import manufacturer will pass them within the next 5 years and become #1, ahead of all US manufacturers, UNLESS Dodge can somehow complete their turnaround and shoot past everybody.

[markd79ta]

The death of the B-body told me that GM was heading downhill. That was a great car, and you can ask anybody that owned one (I still have mine). You ask any police department, they will all tell you that the B-body was the best police car they've ever had, period. The Crown Vic can't hold a candle to the Caprice, never could. So when GM killed that, I said "uh-oh."

Exactly, there isn't a quality full-size car in the GM line-up. My Roadmaster is one of the best cars put on the road. I am spoiled, and GM has nothing that I like. I have a nice fancy SSEI, and I still climb into my old 160,000 mile Roadmaster and feel at home. The only car that comes close is the 300C/Magnum. I purchased the used SSEI cheap because I was for Zeta...stupid me. I should have got the 300C and been happy. Look at what my loyalty got me?

[SS_CarGuy]

All this bad press is going to lead to a self fullfilling prophesy..........that GM doesn't know what it is doing and will eventually go belly up so to speak. Someone at GM better hold a damage control meeting immediately. And everyone should stop talking to the press. Day after day of things like this article causes everyone to loose what little faith they have and will continue to drive GM's stock prices and sales lower and lower. Regardless of how we feel individually about GM, all of this media stuff is getting pretty ridiculous. I just don't understand why Bob Lutz would say anything about the possibility of eliminating one or two divisions at this point.

[wolfdogs]

Buick is phasing out... let face it.. the small japanese cars ,fancy sedans, because of good gas mileage and whatever, are catching the old folks eyes.......

i say can Buick.................




my mom would kill me if she was alive for saying that...thats all she ever drove... but they were the size of small yatchs!

[Joe 1320]

Buick is phasing out... let face it.. the small japanese cars ,fancy sedans, because of good gas mileage and whatever, are catching the old folks eyes.......

i say can Buick.................

::

When they killed the Grand National I said "uh,oh... what are they thinking?"
Both my GN and their thinking both continue to this day.

[Trash man]

if GM is to survive this needs to happen

Chevy: give a coblat a turbo instead of a supercharger. Make the monte RWD and offer the 5.3 in there. BRING BACK THE CAMARO!!!!!

Pontiac: redesigne the GTO, stuff a supercharged LS2 under the hood wit a 6spd and 4.11s and keep it around 35K. BRING BACK THE FIREBIRD. take the solice and dont mess it up, ditch the sunfire and make a new car and turbo that

Buick: three letters GNX

Olds: Bring it back wit the 442 and the cutlass

just my 2 cents

[markd79ta]

After doing some more thinking and test driving a 300 last night...what an incredible car!!!

More then anything, GM needs to think about pride. I have 0 pride in GM right now. They are so engulfed in short term sales that they are not thinking about the big picture. For the most part, people are fickle and will move from one brand to the next, but there is a core market for GM, Dodge, and Ford. If those core people are not happy, then there is something terribly wrong, and this has and will come back to haunt each and every manufacturer who turns their back on their faithful. My direct influence resulted in 7 new GM sales among friends family, and myself over the past 13 years; this will no longer happen because of my attitude towards them right now.The people at GM need to realize that their core people are disgruntled, and ready to jump ship. Heck, it was better to be a GM guy in the 80s then it is now. Today, our only choice is which $55,000+ do we want to spend...like that is going to happen for most of us.

GM needs to rebalance themselves. They are focusing too much on a trend, and not a holistic approach. When the SUV craze dies, what are they going to do? Their vehicle line-up is too much of the same boring thing, and now with no plans to change that. Pontiac's answer, kill the Grand AM, Grand Prix, Bonneville, and reintroduce the G6 & G8 that are the same stupid cars as they just killed. The new name plates are not going to mask these recycled cars. Why do they need 101 varieties of the same old boring FWD sedan. The rest of the manufactures don't do that. How could anybody get excited about Buick without the Riviera, Grand National, and Roadmaster in the lineup? Buick is now the most boring lineup of cars on the planet.

GM needs one good RWD/AWD flagship sedan with that special flair across divisions like the 300/Magnum...that thing is selling like crazy (there are no discounts, no incentives, no special lease terms)...the car just sells itself (even and especially the V6 models) This car needs to be in the affordable with several options ranging from 25k to 40k. They need one good medium sized FWD sedan that spans divisions, They need one good compact sedan that spans divisions. They need some decent affordable priced compacts that people like. The Grand Am was great, but too expensive. The Cobalt is great, but too expensive for what it is. They need something like the Neon that is affordable and a tuner car for those that like that sort of thing. They need a RWD versatile coupe platform that can support a Camaro, Grand National, GTO, Chevelle etc. These may not produce a multitude of sales, but if the plant is geared to produce a moderate supply of each, it will more then pay for itself, and give the enthusiasts and traditional loyalists what they want. They need to produce a true heavy duty truck in the 3/4 and 1 ton market so people like me are not forced into buying a Dodge or Ford..

Another thing, they really need to take a hard look at some of the stupid ideas that come across their desk. Pontiac has put out the most ridiculous cars over the past decade. Honestly, who was smoking the bad weed that allowed the Aztec, the Sunfire, and the Vibe to come to market. What a complete waste of resources. The Equinox was a pretty decent SUV/car that can be modified across divisions. Additionally, they need something similar to SVT to tune their cars and trucks for that extra appeal. The formula is out there, and they have the resources to do it, but the people running the show are too stupid to figure it out.

[Injuneer]

Buick is phasing out... let face it.. the small japanese cars ,fancy sedans, because of good gas mileage and whatever, are catching the old folks eyes.......

i say can Buick.................



my mom would kill me if she was alive for saying that...thats all she ever drove... but they were the size of small yatchs!

Yepppp..... Buick disappears, there's goes half the advertising revenue for the AARP magazine and newsletter...... what are those little purple haired ladies going to buy? I'm willing to bet there are more Buicks in NJ with "handicap" plates than all the other makes combined.

I was thinking of trading my Formula in on a Buick.... that way it would look right at home in the parking lot at the old age home.

The little blurb I read in the local paper indicates GM is going with the divisions where the money is... Hummer (didn't I just hear that H2 sales had cratered?), Cadillac and GMC.

The inmates are running the asylum.

[thomas]

Hey Markd79 ta, I have 2 300's for sale if you want them.

[markd79ta]

Hey Markd79 ta, I have 2 300's for sale if you want them.

What? do you have a dealership? I would love to get one; but realistically, I can buy one new car in the near future so I need to make a choice. I think I am going to get the GT500 in '07, and buy a 300C or Charger R/T daily driver used after they drop in price somewhere down the line. My Vette, Firebird 400, Blazer, and probably the '97 are all going up for sale over the next year so I can place my order on the GT500 of my choice. Also, in a way, I want to support the new Mustang to prove that there is a market for this car.