60's Era Muscle ---vs----Modern Muscle

[jerrysta]

I have had many arguements with family members over the advantages/disadvantages of the older muscle cars vs the newer ones and was interested to know what the opinions of the board members were on this topic?

Personally I think guys remeber them as being faster than what they really were. Of course I was not alive at the time to know for sure

Plus I like the fact that our cars stop and have decent gas mileage.

What do you guys think?

[wolfdogs]

I have had many arguements with family members over the advantages/disadvantages of the older muscle cars vs the newer ones and was interested to know what the opinions of the board members were on this topic?

Personally I think guys remeber them as being faster than what they really were. Of course I was not alive at the time to know for sure

Plus I like the fact that our cars stop and have decent gas mileage.

What do you guys think?

they are faster today, the streetable ones..

i had a 68 Chevelle SS 396 I ran b-modified production with... it was streetable... it ran in the mid to high 12's.... but that was shaved tires...

its so easy to make a modern muscle car do that now days..and stay legal....

the one thing i really miss though.... gas prices... LOL... my 396 with those dual holley 780's with secondary gear drive squirters was getting 5.9 miles a gallon..but ....at .44 a gallon....for leaded...LOL...who cared... LOL

[95TransAm]

I love 'em both sooooo much. My friend has a beautiful 72 monte carlo that is putting out around 400 RWHP at least....it's disgustingly awesome

I agree with wolfman on this one, they're faster today...and it's easier to get it to produce more power and remain legal.

The one huge advantage IMO about modern muscle is they can corner a h*ll of alot better as well.

The one huge disadvantage.....not as fun (and easy) to work on as the oldies

[TraceZ]

Those older muscle cars weighed a lot. They had power and torque, but at the same time were not really all that fast. Try turning a corner in one.

A modern day 4 - door Buick could keep up with many older musclecar models. Now, the big block / Hemi cars were fast and deserve respect, but still did not corner and are very rare today.

My dad swears by his big block 455 olds. I hope to beat him after my 396 project is completed. He claims 550 HP in a full sized 83 Cutlass Hurst/Olds. It is fast, but i think I can beat it.

This same argument can be compared the the sport compact trend. for example:

If the modern small block muscle car is better than the old fassioned big block torque monster, then is it not plausable to argue that a turbo charged 4-banger in a compact platform is better than a small block muscle car?

[jerrysta]

You guys make good points. Many of the same ones I have used before. I argue with my brother in law all the time about this very topic. He's one of these anti-computer age guys. He likes to always talk about fuel injection and how that took away from guys being able to work on the cars because of the required computer monitoring. The last time he said that I told him the last thing I want to do is fart around with a carb running rich or lean. I said "I send my cpu to a guy, he adjusts it, and that's that." Everything is great."

I also always say you can show me a fast car from the 60's and I can show you a car as fast or faster, with better gas mileage, brakes, and handling.

Anyone else?

[TraceZ]

here is a good website for some comparisons:

http://www.ssmoparmuscle.com/speedcomp.htm

http://www.fast-autos.net/pontiac/pontiacgtojudge.html

http://www.fast-autos.net/plymouth/p...hhemicuda.html

You can see, the premium muscle cars in the hayday pre-emissions were right in line with todays fast cars. Plus, they were not nearly as reliable, did not last as long, burned a ton more gas, poluted the environment and could not go around a corner at any kind of speed.

The good times are today guys. It doesnt get much better than this! Go drive a new LS1/2 GTO or a Mustang Cobra, or a LS1 F-body / Corvette.... Heck, even a Subaru WRX sti is competative. There are a ton of wickedly fast cars available to day with full bumper to bumper warrentys that will last for hundreds of thousands of miles quite reliably and get decent gas mileage.

[95TransAm]

I'll admit, when I first started to work on cars....I was anti-computer also. The first cars I ever worked on in my life were simple carburated sbc's. I'll never forget starting to work on cars with computers....I was lost. But, once you utilize computers and sensors to their fullest....you can't beat it. You can get exact readings on many technical aspects of your car, as well as pinpointing a problem rather than having to test all possibilities.

Also, you can tune your car perfectly with the help of a computer. Listen to an older cammed car, you definitely hear it loping like other. Listen to the new LS2 or LS7 engines...sound so smooth, which is pretty amazing considering an LS7's cam has a .591-inch lift for both the intake and the exhaust.

Don't get me wrong, I love muscle cars to death....probably more so than alot of newer cars. At the same time, you can't dispute facts and the amazing possibilities that go with newer muscle and its' computers.

[Injuneer]

Real world numbers from my two personal favorite Pontiacs....

1966 GTO 389ci Tri-Power, 4-speed, 3.55 posi rear (stock):

HP: 360HP SAE gross
Performance: 14.4 @ 96 MPH, 0-60 in 6.0 seconds
Fuel economy: 9 MPG
Braking: Weak, even with the limited production option HD front brakes.
Cornering: low-average, and the suspension had been tweeked, wider wheels and tires.... Olds Cutlass police option LCA's, rear sway bar, etc.
Trunk Capacity: large cow or 3 human bodies



1994 Formula, 350ci, 6-speed, 3.42 posi rear (stock):

HP: 275 SAE net
Performance: 14.1 @ 99MPH, 0-60 in 5.5 seconds
Fuel economy: 18mpg city, 22mpg avg, 30mpg cruising at 80mph
Braking: Average
Cornering: Above average
Trunk capacity: Negligible.

Anybody who thinks its more fun to diddle around with three carbs, than it is to run a program on a laptop has a short memory. I can remember too many instances of hitting the carb with a hammer to cure a sticking float, having the plugs foul with excessive idling in heavy traffic, etc.

[Joe 1320]

The older cars may "feel" faster due to the dynamics of the older chassis. They tend to have a higher overall ride height, softer suspensions, etc..... They tend to feel a little less stable at speed, giving an illusion of greater speed. Many of my older musclecars would get carved up by my more modern machinery in terms of actual performance numbers. My T/A is considerably quicker yet feels much more relaxed than many of my older rides. Today's performance cars are not really much faster, I think the average is only a half second in the quarter...... they just don't feel faster than the old stuff. Kinda like the difference in feel between the LS1 and an LT-1. You think the old LT-1 is powering away only to watch as the LS1 walks you at higher speed.

Oh and Fred, the 66 and 67 was my favorite years for the GTO...... sweet ride.

[Z Ya Later]

Not that I was around then, but I would also have to go with modern muscle. I mean, I love the classics. I drool over a 69 Camaro every time I see one, esp. a Z/28 in black . But, there's no way it'll beat my 93 without a good amount of work. My dad used to own a 67 Chevelle SS 396 and a 69 Hemi Roadrunner and, after he drove the Z once I did the first slew of mods, he actually said my Z would give his Roadrunner a hard time...wouldn't beat it by any means (straight-line anyways), but it would def. make it work. Kinda made me feel good inside

[Trash man]

boss's friend has a copo camaro and a baldwin motion phase 3 camaro. on the phase 3 it stays on the price sheet "garunteed to run 10.5 or your money back"

[RocKin1967]

boss's friend has a copo camaro and a baldwin motion phase 3 camaro. on the phase 3 it stays on the price sheet "garunteed to run 10.5 or your money back"

man finally somebody helping out the classics lol geez... lol j/k, well im voting 4 the old muscle cars on this 1.... if cornering is a problem then that can be fixed by some aftermarket suspension, might be cheaper than stuff 4 a newer car too, and if it doesnt feel as peppy then theirs a huge! aftermarket (not like u didnt know this just saying). so yea if a 67 camaro feels outdated just bring it back to life with new stuff...big blocks fit right in to no mods, and plus just the sweet lines on the body of a classic r amazing no other car compares to it.... just my opinion im not too into the new cars, ill take a #'s 69 Z/28 over an 06 Z06 anyday.

[Nightrage]

Old muscle cars look great and all but they can't be much more aerodynamic than a Scion XB. I know for a fact that i've seen a comparison where a 92 Camaro with a 305 ran against a 69 Z28 RS with a 302 and the 305 won. I think it was Joe or Fred that explained that motors used to be dyno'd with only the bare necessities required to make the motor run and that's what gave them such huge numbers in horsepower and torque. Old muscle cars just seem overrated to me. I'd love a first generation Firebird with an LT1 or an LS1 in it though.

[Dave-S]

I have had any number of old GM and Mopar Musclecars....bought them new and pretty much left them stock. I have also owned two fourth gen Corvettes and of course my current 2000 CamaroSS.

None of my old musclecars were as fast as my current SS. They also got terrible gas mileage and maintenance cost were higher too. But they were fun to drive and be seen in.....and you could do almost all your own maintenance yourself. The newer cars are faster and handle better and are relatively easy to modify and make faster. So each type of car has it's own appeal.

[Joe 1320]

Anybody who thinks its more fun to diddle around with three carbs, than it is to run a program on a laptop has a short memory. I can remember too many instances of hitting the carb with a hammer to cure a sticking float, having the plugs foul with excessive idling in heavy traffic, etc.

ROTFLMAO.......I remember that stuff too well.

I remember using wire bag ties to hang the secondary metering rods in place because a nitrous backfire through the intake melted the top of the carb. There were no secondary throttle blades left to speak of so I had to try to meter the fuel to match the air just good enough to get it home without calling a tow truck. The newer cars are much more novice friendly in terms of twist the key and drive it.