Colder water!

[Screaming mad]

Hey guys and girls, ive just been reading a car mag, theres an advert in it selling a liquid product (guess an anti freeze) that you put in your engine coolant and it will make it 17deg.c colder and will increase horse power etc.. and increases warmup time...
Now my question! is this stuff really that good, will i notice a difference? or is this stuff just normal anti freeze/coolant marketed differently to attract performace minded people?
should I just stick to my next idea of throttle body bypass? will my car still start in winter?!

[MN6WS6]

Water Wetter, Engine Ice, whatever you want to call it, the stuff works. The reason it works is that it does something to the surface tension so that it is less likely to cause air pockets and keeps the water flowing evenly within the engine. Air pockets make hot spots, which makes for a hotter engine.

The downside is that it is not to be used in winter. So, every winter you'll have to drain the stuff and put back in 50/50 or dexcool, whatever you run. Now, you can add it to 50/50 or dexcool, but the cooling efficiency is not as good. Your choice.

Also, the reason for the TB bypass is to allow colder intake air temperatures. However, once again, in cold climates you'll have to hook this back up in the winter. Otherwise, the extremely cold air could cause ice to form inside your intake, and when that melts, well, water + piston = motor go bye-bye. Those of us in the south don't have to worry about changing coolants every winter and hooking back up the TB coolant hoses. My car hasn't had a TB coolant hose since the day it left the dealership

[Screaming mad]

question 2! guess the radiator drain is the tap at the bottom of the radiator? ( looks brittle ) is there vent for when i refill?

[Injuneer]

While Watter Wetter claims up to 30degF (17degC) reduction in coolant temp, my experience indicates it will do nothing like that. The difference will be hard to see - a few degrees at most. And I don't know why you can't use it in the winter.... what is your basis for that?

The concern with heating the throttle body is that the ice could cause the blades to stick open.... not that water will drip into the intake. A few drops of water will not damage the engine.... water injection is used for detonation control in turbo engine. Again, I've been running without the coolant to the TB for about 7 years now, in weather as cold as 0degF, and never had a problem with throttle body "icing"..... maybe if you live north of the Arctic Circle it would be a concern.

Engine Ice appears to be a full coolant replacement, and they claim up to 50degF (28degC) coolant temp reduction. They also clearly state that is isn't going to do that in computer controlled modern engine, since the computer and thermostat are still in charge of the operating temperature.

[Kevin - Blown 95 TA]

Water Wetter works best with a high concentration of water. the closer you are to the 50/50 mix of antifreeze the less effective it is. the only reason you aren't supposed to use it in winter is because, if you are using it with mostly water, you don't have the usual freezing protection. If you use it in a race car or race bike where you run mostly water, it works the way it's supposed to and adds some lubrication for your water pump and anti-corrosion protection against electrolysis, and then you just drain it out for winter.

[MN6WS6]

What Kevin said on the water wetter and cold weather stuff. They even say on the bottle why you are not supposed to use it in the winter.

And on the water injection, water injection is a mist, which is evaporated in a supercharged engine usually before it ever hits the supercharger and certainly before it enters the combustion chamber, and the evaporation of the water cools the air. There is no water in the combustion chamber with water injection.

[Coop '02Z]

Much like a few drops of water from an iced TB would be...gone before it matters.

[fastTa]

We added Redline Water Wetter to a buddy's Camaro in an attempt to get it to run cooler. He was having a problem with it getting over 210°F. With the stock thermostat and just the addition of the RWW, we saw about a 10°F drop. This was with a 50/50 mixture of Dexcool and water just like stock. Not a huge drop in temp, but it did help. I am going to try some in my ZX-12R this weekend.

In regards to the TB "icing" problem, there is a chance that the blades could theoretically stick open, but it would have to be up there in our Canadian neighbor's countryside. And if ice were to form and melt, the resulting melting water would not harm the motor whatsoever. The temperatures inside the cylinder of an internal combustion motor range anywhere between 450°F-650°F, so any small amount of water (even in a condensed form) will just be vaporized and expelled through the exhaust valve.

[Injuneer]

.... There is no water in the combustion chamber with water injection.

If you inject or drip water into the intake, there will be water in the combustion chamber. Just because it turns to water vapor doesn't mean its not water .

As Kevin points out, as soon as water gets within a few inches of the intake valve, it will flash to vapor phase.

RedLine needs to get there act together if the bottle says its not for use with ethylene glycol-based coolant. This is from their website:

WaterWetter® is a unique wetting agent for cooling systems which reduces coolant temperatures by as much as 30ºF. This liquid product can be used to provide rust and corrosion protection in plain water for racing engines, which provides much better heat transfer properties than glycol-based antifreeze. Or it can be added to new or used antifreeze to improve the heat transfer of ethylene and propylene glycol systems. Designed for modern aluminum, cast iron, copper, brass and bronze systems. Compatible with all antifreezes, including the latest long-life variations.

[MN6WS6]

The thing is that it works better if it's used as Water Wetter only mixed with water. In other words, no coolant. I never said it won't work with coolant mixtures, I said it works better if you don't use any coolant. Royal Purple has a diagram printed in their paperwork about how much better their stuff works when only mixed with water versus mixed 50/50 coolant. It's a drastic difference. I think I'm going to try the Royal Purple stuff in my bike along with their motorcycle oil to try and cool my ride down some.

And my apologies on the water issue. Didn't know about the throttle blade ice condition, I just thought it had to do with the massive amount of water when the ice eventually melts. That assumption was coming from the "ice in intake, car is shut off, ice melts, chamber full of water thanks to ice melting" thought that I never conveyed in my post.

[Injuneer]

The intereting thing that comes to mind is the fact that lowering engine operating temperature does not necessarily increase HP. Its actually got the potential to work the other way, and reduce HP. The lower the coolant temp, the more heat it will remove from the head, and the less heat that's left to expand the combustion products and increase combustion chamber pressures. Purpose-built race engines often run what most people here might consider very high coolant temps.

The question is, by reducing the coolant temp, can you make up for the lost thermal efficiency by seeing a cooler inlet air charge, hence denser air for the combustion chamber. And, can you add a little more timing to increase power, without running into detonation because the heads are cooler. Its a matter of striking a balance on the three issues - thermal efficiency, inlet charge temperature and ignition timing. In a race engine, operating at a fairly constant, very high RPM, the balance would seem to favor higher coolant temps.

Another thing to look at if you are interested in maximizing HP is the Evans NPG coolant system. Evans "invented" the reverse cooling concept as part of his NPG system, and threatened to go after GM for using reverse cooling in the LT1 - hence the return to "conventional" coolant flow in the LS1. His approach is to use a very high flow rate and a very high coolant temp, and a special radiator, along with his proprietary coolant. He gets a bit ethereal with his treatise on "nucleate boiling" and the advantage NPG offers, and it goes way over my head, but people who understand it better than I do claim it works. The ability to cool the head without the potential for vapor blanketing and reducing the heat tranfer coefficient allows a much higher operating temperature, without localized hot spots that would promote detonation.

http://www.evanscooling.com/index2.html

Engines have the capacity of operating at much higher efficiencies, leading to greater power production. Limits on engines are imposed by water-based coolants because the boiling point is too low. Low boiling point coolants all-too-easily produce vapor in the cooling system. There is localized boiling of coolant that produces water vapor that cannot condense. When there is vapor in the coolant jacket, there is an interruption of the heat transfer. The vapor blankets hot spots, reducing heat transfer and causing the temperature at those locations to spike, resulting in destructive detonation and pre-ignition. In most applications, EVANS NPG+ coolant alone will improve fuel economy and reduce emissions by keeping metal temperatures under control. The non-failure operating temperature range of an engine using EVANS NPG+ is broadened, virtually adding a reserve cooling system capacity that is not available with water-based coolants.

Water-based coolants lose their ability to absorb heat from hot spots in the combustion chambers when water vapor is present that blankets the surface, leading to high metal temperature spikes well above critical levels. The result is loss of power from detonation or component structural failure from pre-ignition in the form of piston damage, head gasket failure, and/or warped or cracked heads.
Water-based coolant is operated near its boiling point. Cylinder liner cavitation erosion is caused by vibration-induced high frequency pressure changes at the metal-coolant interface. Coolant, near its boiling point, makes vapor bubbles that abruptly collapse against the metal surface, causing erosion of the metal. As EVANS NPG+ Coolant contains no water and is not operated near its boiling point, cavitation erosion is prevented.

The boiling point of EVANS NPG+ Coolant is 375 degrees F. The coolant is normally controlled at conventional temperatures but functions perfectly well at higher temperatures, even at temperatures considerably higher than the boiling point of conventional coolants. Detonation and pre-ignition are kept under control by better control of metal temperatures at hot locations. Consequently, engines cooled with NPG+ are less likely to pre-ignite or detonate and may be adjusted for improved efficiency and power. Engines controlled by knock sensors (as is common) will automatically respond to the absence of knock and operate with greater efficiency and durability.

[Blazer]

I have been using water wetter in my S10 Blazer with a hot 350 in it for 4 years now an love it. as far as winter goes in Georgia no biggy.