Burned Paint???

[Jeff02GAGT]

Guys,

I really need some help here! I took the car in about a week ago to get detailed. Anyways, they buffed my hood. The hood looked great, and it still does look great. If you see it in the sun, it looks like a mirror. HOwever, at night, when lights hit the hood, it almost looks like HUGE swirl marks... They are whitish marks, but they cover the entire hood and the fenders. Now, I don't know if thats just the way the lights are reflecting off my hood, or if the paint on my hood is toast or something.. I've never experienced burnt paint or anything of that nature... I've put Zaino on, but still in the garage with the light shinning over the car, I still get those weird like WHITE swirl marks and what not. It's not visibile during the day though... Anyone have any ideas???

[Jeff02GAGT]

I forgot to mention

I have a BLUE 2004 WRX STI... Is it just something with dark colors???

[markd79ta]

Depending on how aggressive they got with your hood, it sounds to me that they didn't spend enough time bringing it back. They need to use a very fine polishing abrasive to remove the buffing marks. The fine marks that you see are from a rotary buffer and a cutting compound. If it is done right, nothing will show up when it is done. The last car I did was a black 4runner with 180,000 miles. The paint was greyish in color with multiple scrapes and swirls. When I was done, there wasn't a mark in the paint except for two dents, and a couple of deep scratches that needed spot repair work. You can fill these buffing marks with the Zaino, but I would talk to the people who did the work. In my experience, it wouldn't be acceptable, and I would take the car back, and finish the job.

Additionally, your paint shouldn't be toast; it just needs a little more work. When I color-sand for either show or new paint, I block the clear down with 2000 grit sandpaper, and I bring it back to a high gloss mirror finish that feels like satin.

Good Luck!!!

[Jeff02GAGT]

Sweet Mark >>>

Thanks, I'll have to have it looked at... The only thing I don't understand is how come when you're in the light (day), it looks awesome. It looks very shinny and clear. At night you can see the lines... It almost just looks like the light from the lights is reflecting off of it funny.... Any ideas??? I dont think I want that place to rebuff it... What am I looking at cost wise to buff the hood and front fenders??? Please let me know!

THanks,
Jeff

[wolfdogs]

you NEVER NEVER EVER use a buffer on clear coat. its too soft.

that was a major mistake on your part.... good luck.

[Jeff02GAGT]

Well Ken

Then how come all the body shops use buffers and such???? I never knew it was bad for clearcoat??? What are buffers made for then???

[markd79ta]

Originally posted by wolfman
you NEVER NEVER EVER use a buffer on clear coat. its too soft.

that was a major mistake on your part.... good luck.

Actually, urethane clear coats are very durable. When a car is spot repaired, the clear is blocked and buffed. Any show quality paint job is color sanded and buffed. If it is done improperly, it can be a mess, but if it is done by someone with experience, it comes out extremely nice. Paint shops have been doing it for years, and I block out all of the imperfections in my own work. After I moved back to Colorado with all of the dust and dirt on the roads, I had no choice but to buff it out three times over its life. Even with the wheel on it three times, I still have the factory orange peel so I haven't even yet smoothed it to the finish I want. At some point, I will block it down, and bring it out to a very smooth beautiful finish that is satin to the touch. To be honest, the old alic single stage paints were far more difficult to get right. The clear coats are very forgiving.

[Jeff02GAGT]

One more question

How come the hood looks AWESOME during the day, but at night if you have lights shinning over the hood, it looks horrible??? Anyone have any ideas?? Maybe it's just the light reflecting off the hood, I don't really know...

[markd79ta]

Re: Sweet Mark >>>

Originally posted by Jeff02GAGT
Thanks, I'll have to have it looked at... The only thing I don't understand is how come when you're in the light (day), it looks awesome. It looks very shinny and clear. At night you can see the lines... It almost just looks like the light from the lights is reflecting off of it funny.... Any ideas??? I dont think I want that place to rebuff it... What am I looking at cost wise to buff the hood and front fenders??? Please let me know!

THanks,
Jeff

To answer your question, the buffing marks will show or not show depending on the lighting conditions. Some light shows more then others. florescents show the most imperfections

I would talk to a local Corvette specialist. There is usually one in every major city. They usually have an A sheet of paint/bodywork/detail specialists that they refer their customers to. I think you should find somebody good that way. If the hood and fenders need to be finished, it should only be around $100 or so...maybe less. If you lived in CO, I would just do it for you.

One thing to always remember...don't have anything intrusive done to your paint unless you are referred to an establishment by some really picky people. Most shops bring in/put out as fast as they can. With daily drivers, that is OK. The specialty shops cost a little more, but it is totally worth it.

[Jeff02GAGT]

Alright, Thanks Mark >>

I'll ask around. I'll see if maybe my body shop can even do it... If I put some ZAINO on the car, would that get rid of it? Like Some of that swirl remover??? Anyone have any ideas??

Jeff

[wolfdogs]

Originally posted by markd79ta
Actually, urethane clear coats are very durable. When a car is spot repaired, the clear is blocked and buffed. Any show quality paint job is color sanded and buffed. If it is done improperly, it can be a mess, but if it is done by someone with experience, it comes out extremely nice. Paint shops have been doing it for years, and I block out all of the imperfections in my own work. After I moved back to Colorado with all of the dust and dirt on the roads, I had no choice but to buff it out three times over its life. Even with the wheel on it three times, I still have the factory orange peel so I haven't even yet smoothed it to the finish I want. At some point, I will block it down, and bring it out to a very smooth beautiful finish that is satin to the touch. To be honest, the old alic single stage paints were far more difficult to get right. The clear coats are very forgiving.

clear coat is "durable" BECAUSE its flexable...thats why it does not "chip" like old paint jobs.......from enamel. because its flexable... it can be burned from the buffer.

dissagree. buffer "burn" or "cloud" clear coat that is set up already.... when its "setting up" ...like from the body shop (jeff)... its soft enough to "mold" with the buffer and remain un-clouded..and un swirled.

Jeff.........you have swirls.........or cloud marks from the buffer. my cars dont look any diff under lights at night than they do during the day......... hand polished with zaino show car polish. ive been detailing cars since i was 16 years old.........

im 56 now.



you need to see if you can get some zaino z5 and zfx and add mulitple coats to your hood, "fill in" those marks....

[Jeff02GAGT]

Hey Ken!

Thanks for the explanation bro, you too mark! Anyways, I took my car to the buddy shop, talked to the head guy. He's an awesome guy, and I'm on a first name basis over there with my "great" driving record (HAHAHA). Well, he could see them in the natural light a little. He asked me what kind of polish I had, and I told him Zaino.. He also said that stuff is the SH$T and he uses it on his new black Envoy. He told me to try the Z5 and put some coats of that on, see if that will fill it in. If it doesn't, he said to call him and either he or one of his head painter guys will buff it out for me. THey were jammed packed today, or they would have gotten it out. Also Ken, how many coats would you think I will need to get these swirl marks out? Also, can I put the Z5 on, then wash the car later on today? I use the Zaino Car wash stuff. Please let me know!

Thanks Bro,
Jeff

[markd79ta]

Originally posted by wolfman
clear coat is "durable" BECAUSE its flexable...thats why it does not "chip" like old paint jobs.......from enamel. because its flexable... it can be burned from the buffer.

dissagree. buffer "burn" or "cloud" clear coat that is set up already.... when its "setting up" ...like from the body shop (jeff)... its soft enough to "mold" with the buffer and remain un-clouded..and un swirled.

Jeff.........you have swirls.........or cloud marks from the buffer. my cars dont look any diff under lights at night than they do during the day......... hand polished with zaino show car polish. ive been detailing cars since i was 16 years old.........

im 56 now.


you need to see if you can get some zaino z5 and zfx and add mulitple coats to your hood, "fill in" those marks....

Ken, I hate to argue with you on this because you have been so helpful in many areas. However, I don't see eye to eye with you with regard to clear urathane paint. Believe me; I am not arguing against Zaino!!!!!! I am excited to start working with it, but there are some instances where buffing a clear coat is necessary or desirable. Before posting this, I called my local PPG paint supplier to verify that what I am saying is 100% accurate even though I have been refinishing cars for 14 years. There is no doubt that somebody can really screw up a clear-coat with improper buffing. However, I along with many of my auto-refinishing brethren, I have blocked down and buffed many aged clear coats. Just as the shop owner just told me, in bewilderment of this argument, many people walk through that store that have blocked down and buffed cars after two, three, four, etc. years on the paint. With a little work and know-how, they come out extremely nice or perfect depending on their condition. I haven't had that kind of photo opportunity as shown on your hood, but if that Firehawk was driven on a (72 mile one way) commute into downtown Denver for two years through Colorado winters with the magnesium chloride, the semi trucks down I-25, the road construction (TREX), the rocks and sand used on the roads, it would look a lot different. The only way to truly fix scrapes, fine scratches, chips, and so on is to buff them out. There is no miracle in a bottle that will fix these, although, there are several products that will aid in the process such as the Zaino product will work extremely well with filling minor imperfections like light swirl marks. However, My front bumper finally started to show some real wear with pitting. I just blocked it down, and buffed it out. It looks almost new again; there is nothing that could have filled that short of shooting it. I just removed the bird on my nose with the outline etched in the paint. I blocked it down, and buffed it to a high gloss finish. Not all cars are garage kept, and only driven on bright sunny days. My car has been hit several times, hailed on, rained on, snowed on, rocks thrown at it by the big tucks, rain spots, bug spots, and tree sap spots that were neglected when I was finishing my masters. I just keep plugging away at it, and people still think it looks new so I have succeeded in keeping it nice, and putting on 94,000 miles in five years. I can drive it out in direct sunlight without any evidence of swirls. I can park it under my ceiling florescents that I use for painting with no evidence of swirls. My friends have no idea how I can keep a black car looking like that. As soon as I get the pics developed, I will send some photos of a 180,000 mile black 4runner I just did. I don't doubt that your system works great, and I am going to work with it myself and do some experimenting. I have painted with lacquer, synthetic enamels, alic enamels, single stage urethanes, and two stage urethane clears. Again, as this was all verified by my local PPG dealer, the urethanes are by far the most resistant hardest finishes out there. There is no flex in a solid finish after the curing process without the presence of flex agents, and these aren't used unless shooting plastic or urethane surfaces so I am unsure of what you are talking about with regard to flexibility. Urethane clears are prone to cracking and lifting...alic enamels are prone to chipping and flaking. In both accounts; I refer to this as adhesion (while the urethane is a more bonded finish...and, the alic becomes brittle over time). Again, I am REALLY Really sorry if I seem argumentative, but I thought it was really important to point this out.

[wolfdogs]

Originally posted by markd79ta
Ken, I hate to argue with you on this because you have been so helpful in many areas. However, I don't see eye to eye with you with regard to clear urathane paint. Believe me; I am not arguing against Zaino!!!!!! I am excited to start working with it, but there are some instances where buffing a clear coat is necessary or desirable. Before posting this, I called my local PPG paint supplier to verify that what I am saying is 100% accurate even though I have been refinishing cars for 14 years. There is no doubt that somebody can really screw up a clear-coat with improper buffing. However, I along with many of my auto-refinishing brethren, I have blocked down and buffed many aged clear coats. Just as the shop owner just told me, in bewilderment of this argument, many people walk through that store that have blocked down and buffed cars after two, three, four, etc. years on the paint. With a little work and know-how, they come out extremely nice or perfect depending on their condition. I haven't had that kind of photo opportunity as shown on your hood, but if that Firehawk was driven on a (72 mile one way) commute into downtown Denver for two years through Colorado winters with the magnesium chloride, the semi trucks down I-25, the road construction (TREX), the rocks and sand used on the roads, it would look a lot different. The only way to truly fix scrapes, fine scratches, chips, and so on is to buff them out. There is no miracle in a bottle that will fix these, although, there are several products that will aid in the process such as the Zaino product will work extremely well with filling minor imperfections like light swirl marks. However, My front bumper finally started to show some real wear with pitting. I just blocked it down, and buffed it out. It looks almost new again; there is nothing that could have filled that short of shooting it. I just removed the bird on my nose with the outline etched in the paint. I blocked it down, and buffed it to a high gloss finish. Not all cars are garage kept, and only driven on bright sunny days. My car has been hit several times, hailed on, rained on, snowed on, rocks thrown at it by the big tucks, rain spots, bug spots, and tree sap spots that were neglected when I was finishing my masters. I just keep plugging away at it, and people still think it looks new so I have succeeded in keeping it nice, and putting on 94,000 miles in five years. I can drive it out in direct sunlight without any evidence of swirls. I can park it under my ceiling florescents that I use for painting with no evidence of swirls. My friends have no idea how I can keep a black car looking like that. As soon as I get the pics developed, I will send some photos of a 180,000 mile black 4runner I just did. I don't doubt that your system works great, and I am going to work with it myself and do some experimenting. I have painted with lacquer, synthetic enamels, alic enamels, single stage urethanes, and two stage urethane clears. Again, as this was all verified by my local PPG dealer, the urethanes are by far the most resistant hardest finishes out there. There is no flex in a solid finish after the curing process without the presence of flex agents, and these aren't used unless shooting plastic or urethane surfaces so I am unsure of what you are talking about with regard to flexibility. Urethane clears are prone to cracking and lifting...alic enamels are prone to chipping and flaking. In both accounts; I refer to this as adhesion (while the urethane is a more bonded finish...and, the alic becomes brittle over time). Again, I am REALLY Really sorry if I seem argumentative, but I thought it was really important to point this out.

if it works for ya......do it.

what i do works for me.

my advice came from one of the best custom painters in the country.

ill leave it alone from here. to each thier own.

[wolfdogs]

Re: Hey Ken!

Originally posted by Jeff02GAGT
Thanks for the explanation bro, you too mark! Anyways, I took my car to the buddy shop, talked to the head guy. He's an awesome guy, and I'm on a first name basis over there with my "great" driving record (HAHAHA). Well, he could see them in the natural light a little. He asked me what kind of polish I had, and I told him Zaino.. He also said that stuff is the SH$T and he uses it on his new black Envoy. He told me to try the Z5 and put some coats of that on, see if that will fill it in. If it doesn't, he said to call him and either he or one of his head painter guys will buff it out for me. THey were jammed packed today, or they would have gotten it out. Also Ken, how many coats would you think I will need to get these swirl marks out? Also, can I put the Z5 on, then wash the car later on today? I use the Zaino Car wash stuff. Please let me know!

Thanks Bro,
Jeff

use the new zfx accelerator/gloss enhancer. you can apply three coats of z5 at one time...read the instructions and follow. then its ok to wash the car later on. wait 24 hrs.. put on 3 more coats. without seeing you swirls/clouds... its impossible for me to say how many coats you need.......sorry.