Prolly N00b question

[Wildo83]

Hey guys! Newly returned to the F-body world.. went from a 94 V6 firebird to a crappy cavalier (Thank God I totaled it 2 months after I got it!) And back to a 97 3.8L Firebird.

I'm looking at turbo/ twin turbo charging my 3.8l GM 3800 Series II motor... I have a couple questions for anyone who has anything to say about it. OK first off, if I do the twin turbo set up, I was looking at 8 PSI each... is that over-zealous? Run about 16psi total... is that too much? Secondly I know that this is going to require substatial "building" on the engine... what components should I upgrade? A full list would be wonderful, and any suggestions on brand (pros and cons would be wonderful as well) so that I don't have to keep posting N00b questions.. lol

I.E>

forged Camshaft
forged pistons,
Etc...

Thanks in advance for all your help. It's GREATLY appriciated.

P.S> Hoping to keep it looking like a v6, probably sleeper.. not a lot of external mods... so getting a v8 is out of the question... besides insurance won't cary me on a v8

[FRMLAV8]

I am sure it has been done before, but my guess is most of the responses will sound something like this:

"Take the money you are going to spend on the turbo setup and upgrading everything else in the car and buy a V8 F-body"

Unless you just really want a crazy fast V6, you probably are better off looking for a V8. My guess is it will take alot of time, $$$, and probably some custom work to install and run a TT setup on the Firebird. It will be cool if you get it done though!

Randy

[Iceslim0]

Yeah man, for the price of the twin turbo you can buy a 93-97 trans am. I bought mine for 4000$ and it's probably faster than a twin turbo V6. I have a V6 also and I don't think putting a big block in it would make it fast

[Crazy Canuk]

And if you want the V6 firebird look over the trans am...look into a V8 Formula. It will look the same on the outside as a V6 except it has a couple of small stickers calling it a formula.

They also are a little cheeper but not by much because most ppl perfer the look of a trans am.

A good idea if you want is to hold off on doing stuff this year and wait to do it and pick up a early 4th gen V8 when the new Camaros come out, I think that the prices will drop.

[Joe 1320]

I'm looking at turbo/ twin turbo charging my 3.8l GM 3800 Series II motor... I have a couple questions for anyone who has anything to say about it. OK first off, if I do the twin turbo set up, I was looking at 8 PSI each... is that over-zealous? Run about 16psi total... is that too much?p

It doesn't work that way. 8 psi on one turbo gives the same pressure as 8 psi on two turbos. Only the total airflow rate is higher with twins. 8 psi is 8psi no matter how you look at it.

Now...... are you serious or just deaming? twin turbos and it's accompanying setup to make the car not only run but live will cost boatloads of cash. Unless you are doing this for a reason ie: magazine coverage and sponsorship of some sort, I think you will spend way more time and money than the project worth. Heck, you could simply stuff an old tech 3.8 and single turbo from the Grand National, change the heads to the FWD heads to clear the shock towers and you can run 10s all day long provided you have the rest of the drivetrain to handle it. That will still take a boatload of cash and time.

Again, are you serious or just dreaming?

[Wildo83]

Well, that's what I'm trying to find out.. LOL As I said. "Insurance WON'T cover me on a V8!" so for those of you who didn't read that, thanks for the advice, but NO CAN DO. As far as twin turbos I didn't know that. THANKS! Sooo... I'm going to have to keep the V6 in there _____. <=== that's the period. So then I just need to know what to upgrade inside the engine, and drive train to handle upgrading to A turbo. LOL Thanks

[FRMLAV8]

Therre is another option. Swap in a V8. There is a local guy here in Cincy that took the engine and front suspension out of a wrecked V8 and swapped it into his V6 car. They had it running that day.

According to the VIN it is still a V6 car, so insurance doesn't change, but you get the benefit of the V8 power. (disclaimer: I make no claim to the legality of swapping in a V8, but insuring the car as a V6. What the insurer doesn't know won't hurt him - no offence to Performin' Norman )

Just another option to think about. I think it cost him about $5000 total to do the swap and buy the parts.

[raroZ28]

Whoever thinks that a V8 LT1 is going to beat a TT 3.8L V6 is dreaming, esp if it's done right.

The motor will have to be totally redone.

If I were going to do something like that, I'd go with the following..

Forged Internals are a must. I went with JE on my last Turbo car, they're awesome.

Something like this..

Motor:
JE Forged Pistons, approx. 8.5:1 or 9:1 Compression ration
Hastings racing rings
Clevite 77 Rod and main bearings
Nitried hardened or forged crank or something stronger

Fuel system:
You'll need bigger injectors to deliver the extra fuel that turbo's gonna burn.
A rising rate fuel pressure regulator would be nice too.
ECU is going to have to be tuned for it, or you could go stand alone and tune it yourself with a laptop.

You'll want it intercooled, so you're going to need an intercooler and all the plumbing.
Probably a different mass airflow sensor, or maybe run without one?
Wideband o2
The turbo's themselves
Custom turbo headers

And some sticky ass tires to put the power to the ground

An engine rebuild is a must. If you do the work yourself you can save buttloads of cash.

But like said above, unless you're loaded and going for something special to go on magazines, it's pointless. Might as well buy an engine that's already turbo'd and drop it in, it'd be cheaper to fab it to fit in than do the above. What I put up there would cost THOUSANDS. Very unrealistic. Half the stuff I mentioned probably isn't even in an aftermarket catalog, it'd all have to be custom fabbed.

But if you did that and did it right, the car would fly.

[Wildo83]

Thanks! That's EXACTLY what I was after!!! Someone did it!



Did anyone ever concider that maybe I just want to do it to have a unique car? Something noone else has (or very few people have)? I don't want a LS1 02 trans am, because then I'll be just like 2000 other people on this site... Point me to 10 memebers w/ a twin turbo 6 cylinder Firebird... I didn't think you could.. Honestly.. to get a 02 Trans am will cost me at least $10K, and THEN come all the engine mods... I ALREADY have the 6 cyl firebird, and It'll be paid off in a couple months... After that, Every penny I make can be dumped into the engine...

Thanks for the advice, and maybe someday I'll get an 02 trans am.. but not right now.

[Trans Am]

if you do that, than i ll put twin turbos on my trans am j/k

[Joe 1320]

Thanks! That's EXACTLY what I was after!!! Someone did it!



Did anyone ever concider that maybe I just want to do it to have a unique car? Something noone else has (or very few people have)? I don't want a LS1 02 trans am, because then I'll be just like 2000 other people on this site... Point me to 10 memebers w/ a twin turbo 6 cylinder Firebird... I didn't think you could.. Honestly.. to get a 02 Trans am will cost me at least $10K, and THEN come all the engine mods... I ALREADY have the 6 cyl firebird, and It'll be paid off in a couple months... After that, Every penny I make can be dumped into the engine...

Thanks for the advice, and maybe someday I'll get an 02 trans am.. but not right now.

Am I reading a little sarcasm? You have to understand, there is loads of tech knowledge floating around on this board and from time to time we get new members who ask needless questions with no intention of ever doing the build. Anytime we get a new member asking about twin turbos combined with youth, multiplied by previous driving infractions there comes a point we have to question how serious you really are. No offence, that's just the way it is. There are quite a few folks on this board that in relative short order could give you a specific parts list, right down to who and where to do the duno tuning. And for the folks who really want the knowledge and are patient, they will get it beyond what you would expect. As a matter of fact, when my place was hit hard by several hurricanes, the great people on this board stepped up and raised donations to help with the damage. For that, these comrads have my utmost respect. This board has the reputation of being utra clean, no personal bashing, a family type environment. It's the way it has always been and it's the way it will stay. I really hope there is no sarcasm because the experience will be short lived.

Now for technical advice, the engine with proper tuning can handle limited boost of 8 psi. I say proper tuning in the strictest sense. You could even do it as cheaply as a rear mount turbo, intercooler and alcohol or propane injection. Failure to have a dead on tune will result in a dead motor.

[Wildo83]

Absolutely and Honestly NO sarcasm meant there.. Sorry if it came off that way.

I know how helpfull this forum can be, because I was a memeber almost 6 years ago, when I was driving my first car a 1994 Pontiac Firebird V6 (untill the tranny went out not once, not twice, but 3 times!!)... and everyone was Incredibly helpful and welcoming. So you can understand, now 6 years later, when I ask a question, and everyone dances around it I could get frustrated?
I'm very serious about doing this work, and my fiancee is as well. She's willing to dump money into her, too! (I sure lucked out on that one)
So any and all info on where and who and what to do to this thing would be absolutely helpful.

As some of you may have guessed... I'm not exactly mechanicaly inclined... You want me to wire up a relay to make your brake honk the horn, I'm on it... lol You want a remote start system on your bird? (I got one on mine) I'll have it done in a couple hours.. I'm more towards the audio/video/security 12v side of the vehicle.. (since I do it for a living) So I'm definitely gonna need help if I decide to do this myself, and more help on wether I'm gettin' jipped at the shop if I decide to have someone else do it. I'm hoping to get this done (started on) as soon as next year... So I'm definitely serious.. Again, thanks for all the help so far, and in advance for future help. Belive me it is GREATLY APPRICIATED

[Wildo83]

When you say 8 psi, I'm assuming your talking about a Non-Built engine? If not, then I need to seriously talk.. lol But another big question I have is the boost to horsepower ratio... If I'm pushing 8Lbs of boost in, rougly what will my horsepower jump by? (assuming I have all the work done I need to have done, IE. built engine, bigger injectors, stand-alone fuel management system, etc)

Thanks boat loads... nae, Yatch loads!

[Joe 1320]

When you say 8 psi, I'm assuming your talking about a Non-Built engine? If not, then I need to seriously talk.. lol But another big question I have is the boost to horsepower ratio... If I'm pushing 8Lbs of boost in, rougly what will my horsepower jump by? (assuming I have all the work done I need to have done, IE. built engine, bigger injectors, stand-alone fuel management system, etc)

Thanks boat loads... nae, Yatch loads!

8 psi should be the limit of a regular production Series II 3800. While there have been a few that pushed a little more, it's better to be a little safe than end up with damage. The HP boost should be 10 HP per lb of boost minimum on a 3.8 liter stocker, as you unchoke it with ported heads and such, total airflow ends up being a little more of the issue than boost psi but the HP level per lb of boost will increase slightly. Think about this, the more you compress air, the more it heats up (Boyles Law). I would rather flow 700 cfm at 8 lbs of boost than 700 cfm at 16 lbs. There is much less heat being generated, much less stress too. Ideally, you want to flow as much air and fuel as possible at the lowest boost setting to acheive the desired performance. Anything that can be done to cool the intake charge will help limit detonation and add power. You could, in theory be right at 300 HP with just 6 psi on a well flowing built engine, up the boost from there at it starts to really scream. Without internal mods, my best guess is 300 HP at an intercooled 8psi. It's the torque that will be really stout. You should be in LS-1 territory with proper traction.

As a comparison, my GN's motor is a .030 over 3.8 with a block girdle, steel mains, forged pistons, etc... heads, billet roller cam, and so on. That little monster at 21 psi will give me an easy 10 second timeslip right at 130 mph in a full weight car with a/c. Just put it in drive, brake torque and blast off. The better the flow, the better the power.

[Wildo83]

OK forgive me for being a little slow So the best set up would be twin turbos if I'm reading this right.. because they'll get more air flowing through? Right? so if I ran like 10psi on twin turbo it'd run faster than single turbo at 15psi? SOrry if I'm confusing myself. LOL