Radar Detectors? What do you think?

[Rhode Island Red]

Kevin M. thanks for your responses


My uncle has been in the ventura county sherrifs dept for nearly 30 years. And he said all what you have said...

So I explained my latest ticket (first ever) which I have to got to mass on the 23 to fight....

here is the scenario

convoy of 14 4th gen f-bodies passing 2 semi's in the 2 slower lanes going over a broad hill with a speed limit of 65 (6 red f-bodies. Over the immediate rise was an officer on the fast lane side pulled over running radar. we decide to pass the truck that were going 45 in a 65 in both lanes and we decide to be safe and pass them and flwo with traffic doing so... it ends up some of our lead pack gunned it to pass the semi, while the back still had cruise control on at 65... as I passed him, he was already moving out into traffic and followed our group for a mile or so before pulling the guy in front of me over.. me and 2 other guys behind me decide to pull over as well and wait for him aas he didn't know the directions. first thing the officer did was go to the car he pulled over and say "are you all going to a camaro convention" (i'm not telling the judge this as it won't help) and decides to get mine and the others as well .... well he takes my info and gives us all a ticket for 85 in a 65 ($200 -crossed out the max head injury fund ($25) and doubled the max head-injury fund to $50)and the last guy an 84 in an 65 ($175).. but here is the clincher, for me at least, my car is registered in Rhode Island, and my drivers license is Rhode island... He put Massachussetts for my license plate, even aftger looking at it, and put massachussetts for my drivers license as well... he had the correct info but did not ... big time error on his part

here is my uncle's response:

It does not matter what the officer did while he was pulling you over, nor that he screwed up your ticket, it is the fact you gave him an initial reason in the first place to pull you over. Given that you did not know what speed you were going, (and that I do not know the mass laws) adn he can explain away the messed up ticket (he explained that he has seen every excuse and response in court in 30 years.) he pretty much said it would be difficult for me to beat... he said that I can try that he got a group speed (the way radar works) and not an idividual speed, but he still wrote up a different speed for another driver.. so how can he determine it was me independently going that speed given he got a group speed.... also given that there were 6 red car and he messed up my state of registration and my state drivers license,when he had it in his had, I can argue that it was not me and he was not attentive at the time to tell my car from the other 5 red cars (he said this would be difficult for the judge to acdept this) .. any ways I am gong to be honest to the judge, tell him exactly what events occured as truthfully as possible with no glorified stories was my uncle's advice (BTW he pulle dover tommy lasorda and ticheted him for speeding )

I am gonna try to argue that I was going the speed limt and he ticketed someone else with the same name, and claim the ticket is written up for someone else and not me.. and that the speed he recieved was fopr another red firebird and not me... hopefully I can give enough doubt about the ticket that it will have the ticket thrown out ..

giving a reasonable doubt to the judge about the ticket was my uncles best advice next to telling the truth

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by Rhode Island Red
.. any ways I am gong to be honest to the judge, tell him exactly what events occured as truthfully as possible with no glorified stories was my uncle's advice
..................

I am gonna try to argue that ....... he ticketed someone else with the same name, and claim the ticket is written up for someone else and not me.. and that the speed he recieved was fopr another red firebird and not me...

BAAAHHHH????

[N20LT4Bird]

Dont "argue" anything. In court, you do not have to testify. That is your right. The prosecution has to pove that you were speeding. They cannot ask you any questions in the trial. You have the right to not testify against yourself. You can act as your own attorney and question the officer on the stand. You have the right to face your accusers. You have to come up with a line of questioning that brings doubt into the mind of the judge. If the officer cant remember the details of the stop - thats good for you. But, the key is to NOT testify - this way you are not lying on the stand. If you "argue" that it wasnt you in the car, it would be a lie. Perjury. You can beat that ticket, without having to lie.

[Rhode Island Red]

the best questioning I can muster
is the radar picking up the group speed or the individual speed

what position do you beleive I was in, in relation of the f-body that passed you (2/3 way back)

did you get the speed of the other individuals that previously have passed?

was he aware of the two slower semis in the other lane, inhibiting traffic (they were going 45 mph up the hill)

was he aware that traffic was congest due to the semi?

did attempt to ge a group speed or an individual speed?

(if group how come last person you wrot up got a different spped?)

(if individual, I will ask is it possible that the speed you received, was for another car and not mine,? (believing that the radar could not tell the difference in cars as we were all bunched together), in the process and how can he determine me if there were so many car together in a small area)

were you aware of how many red car were ther in the convoy


when puylling over the black camaro, were you aware that it was difficult to tell which car you wanted to pull over?

which car or cars were you trying to pull over?

Were you aware that were you looking for a red f-body with massachussets plates

were you aware that my car is registered in rhode isand

how come you did not attempt to ticket the individual in the SOM F-bird, after hew was pulled over on the side of the road and decided to keep going?

If you did indeed pull him over, do you have the speed he was going? how come he was not cited or an attempt to do so?

how come with my driver license in your hands, you still wrote my drivers license up as from Massachussetts?

[N20LT4Bird]

Thats a good start. You dont want to ask any questions that you dont already know the answer to - that way you can lead into the next question. You have to have a direction to go with the questioning, eventually ending with a big question mark. Ask very detailed questions. Ex. How many red cars were in my convoy. The more "I dont knows" you get, the better.

The other thing that you can do is supena the radar log for calibration. When was the last you calibrated it? How was it done? etc....

The big thing is that he could not have possibly gotten a radar reading on all of your cars in the convoy AND kept them straight in his head to write tickets. He sited you for going XX in an XX zone, They have to PROVE (almost) that you were doing that.

Chances are the district attorney will offer you a reduction to avoid the hassle of a trial. If you take the reduction, make sure it is at least reduced to a non moving violation. Let the D.A. know that you are prepared to go to trial if need be. AND NEVER admit ANY guilt to anyone at anytime - the D.A., the cop, the judge.

If your interested in doing this thing - get the book "Traffic Ticket Defense" - its good. It lets you in on the little rules of the court that you will have to know to make yourself look like a competent person. It will help you set up a good line of questioning. Heres the link:

https://secure.motorists.org/secure/store/view/ttd.asp

If more people took the time to fight tickets, it wouldnt be such a lucrative business for them. Maybe they would wise up and stop.
And.......if you go to court and lose - so what? You had a good time bustin their b@lls. They cant throw you in jail as long as you are respectful and play by the rules (dont get out of line). So, have fun.

[Kevin M]

Only 1 page this time

Sorry if I got a little full of myself. It's that in my area I work, there are no jurisdictions that do crap like sitting behind a sudden drop in speed sign. But I have read about some of these little towns that do that so I understand the frustration there. Up until approx. 3 years ago, my department didn't even get money from tickets. We wrote them when they were the right thing to do. We get a cut of the money now, but it hasn't changed anything, it's just a happy coincidence. And no, I don't get a cut and no my salary is not tied in anyway to that money. When we write the tickets we're really looking for the ones that are going to a. Hurt people b. Cause property damage or c. Going to tie up traffic or cause road rage.

As far as determining who gets the ticket like Gordon asked, it's always a judgement call. There are a million things that come into play. How fast, how much traffic, lighting, weather, pedestrians, type of car (let me clarify that later), condition of car, driver's experience, driver's actions, driver's attitude.

For instance. Gordon could be going 50 mph in a 35 mph zone four lane road in his smokin silver WS6. He's got both hands on the wheel, he changes lanes to give the bicyclist space, and as soon as he sees me( he's paying attention to the surroundings) he slows to about 40. Coming the other direction is a '82 Honda Civic. The driver's going 45 in the 35 zone. The Honda driver is looking down at his CD player, his one hand has his cell phone to his ear, and the left front tire is a spare. It almost sounds like a trick question. Who gets the ticket? The sports car going 50 or the commuter car going 45? Survey says...Honda!

Lastly, I said I don't get any ticket money. True, but I do make extra sometimes out of them. I rarely go to court. But unlike N2LT says, it's hardly busting my chops. I get overtime to go to court. And if it's on my day off or vacation, the court can move the date one time for me and one time for the def. So I'm not really inconvienced and I have more $$$. It would be a reason to write bad tickets, then I could go to court all the time and make more OT. But that's not what the boys in blue are all about.

Sorry if I'm beating this to death. I'm hoping everyone drive's responsibly 'cause that's my family out there on the same road.

[N20LT4Bird]

Again I want to say I am not trying to flame you Kevin, sorry if I offended you. You sound like you are a good cop.

I am not anti-cop. If I wasnt a teacher, that was next on my list - a cop. My grandfather is retired NYPD. He's got stories that would make your head spin. He's a real cop.

My fathers shop is in the city of Syracuse, NY. He is real tight with the neighborhood police. He helps them out with info on whats happening in the neighborhood, and they in turn help him out whenever they can. We have even gone out on patrol with them, just to check things out. Those guys are real cops. So, I have the utmost respect for a cop who is putting his life on the line to help.

What I do not like is the cop is who is stationed in suburbiatown, or podunktown, usa and has never seen any action but wipping out his pen to write up tickets. Those are the guys sitting behind the sign, or are setting up the road blocks to check inspection stickers, or pulling people over for having a borla exhaust, or (the list can go on and on). This is flat out wrong. Again, its probably not even the individual cops, but their administration that are in the wrong. Unfortunately, this is generally the rule rather than the exception in places where I have lived. Again, I have never lived in a place where cops actually have to PROTECT and serve.


oh.... and as far as the busting of chops goes - its not the cops who your bustin chops - its the system. When my father went in to fight the speeding ticket - we were the only people left in the court room. They had to pay the judge, the cops, the baliff all overtime - until 11 PM at night. They couldnt earn any money from the ticket. Thats busting chops.
end rant (again)

[Jeff_in_Atl]

I hate being hassled on my bike.

[Rhode Island Red]

I can tell you that the radar was calibrated that morning as I asked the officer then after receiving the ticket

in the "description of offense" the officer said "all together following" . that is it

and under civil category it has 85 in a 65 marked posted and by radar

as for contacting the district attourney before the trial ... how do you go about doing that?

I am ask if he got the lead car and assumed I was going that same speed

what would be the best line of questioning to raise question about the offense?

[N20LT4Bird]

This is how it works in NY. There should be a date on the ticket, allowing you to plead in person. When you go for the arrainment (when you plead), the judge will ask how you plead. I usually respond not guilty and ask if I can speak with the district attorney.

As far as your questions go, The officer must be able to recall the event by independant recollection. If he is using notes to remember, you have the right to see them. Start with MANY detailed questions like "what color was my car?, what colors where the cars in front and behind me? Did I have a passenger? You could ask about his radar and the calibration etc etc... There were too many cars sited for him to remember everything. Use that to your advantage. Try to get as many "I dont knows" as you can. Then, you could ask if he got your vehicle on radar - the answer would probably be "no". Then, how do you know how fast I was traveling? He might answer "you were following another vehicle clocked at xx mph." You could ask, if is it possible that my vehicle could have been traveling the legal speed limit and the other vehicle was accelerating away from me. Then continue from there. Bring in witnesses that may be able to testify against any fasle information the officer may have offered up.

Again, when you are planning your dialog, it takes some time to think about the different scenarios that might arise. I would suggest writing it like a flow chart. There are so many other legal techniques that can be used along side your basic line of questions. There are many technicalities that you could win the case by - its just a matter of knowing. I would highly suggest the book mentioned above. You will not regret reading it.

[hotwhip9]

The best way i found to get out of tickets is to always have my uniform hanging up in the back, lying on the passenger seat, or wearing it when travelling from ft bragg up to ny. I got pulled over 5 times in one trip and not one ticket, many police from what i have realized kind of show an appreciation for the military, especially since last trip i was surprising my family by coming home before i went to iraq last february. But as n20lt4bird knows, webster cops back home are radiculous! I have gotten pulled over for countless pointless reasons, once for music being too loud and i argued it, because the new law he thought had passed didnt, because i was there when they had the town meeting for it. So then he proceeded to find deficencies with my car. Then, this was a BS ticket, "unattended motor vehicle" my buddy was outside in the parking lot at advance auto where i used to work, and i ran inside to get my paycheck and come out and dewind is holding my car keys and writing me a ticket. He doesnt like me, because i always comment on his wife, the news lady robin dewind.

[N20LT4Bird]

I actually havent been pulled over too many times by the webster cops - I think once for 45 in a 35 on five mile line rd. (Got a ticket)
Its the NYS troopers on 104 through ontario and williamson that are real a$$es.

[hotwhip9]

hah!!! Those guys.. those 104 troopers.. man, going by williamson and red creek up to my cottage in fairhaven is a joke!!! Most cops like the military id, when you hand them that by accident before the license, but not those guys. Going through sodus on that bend near the rr tracks they sit way back in the trees, its bad! Be careful out there!

[N20LT4Bird]

bad boys, bad boys, whatcha gonna do......... Yea, they are ridiculous.

[Mixedpuppy]

Hey hotwhip9,

What unit you with, where you at and what's your MOS?