need some help, please engine experts >>

[Joe 1320]

The factory shop /assembly manuals are killer. They literally show every nut and bolt. They run roughly $75 from a dealer. The best part about them is that there are diagnostic charts that step by step, will take your through the factory assembly line diagnostics for about every condition.

[Craig 94 TA GT]

OK, thanks Joe. Will get that...

What's your take on the "engine is siezed and will only turn one way" story? If this is true, do you know what could be the problem?

[PhantomZ28]

well heres all i can help ya with, i just started my mechanics class yesterday and we just did compression and vacume tests (did you run a vacum test) this might help. but heres a realy nifty sight
http://www.autosite.com/garage/symptoms/s017.asp

[Joe 1320]

Originally posted by Craig 94 TA GT
OK, thanks Joe. Will get that...

What's your take on the "engine is siezed and will only turn one way" story? If this is true, do you know what could be the problem?

It's pretty hard for me to diagnose anything without having hands on. My bet is that something is leaking fluid into a combustion chamber. Whether it be fuel or water, neither of can be compressed. I suspect some type of hydo lock. Again, unless I se it, I really can't comment. If it were mine, I would pull it into the garage and start with the obvious. Compression, fuel and spark. Heck, it could even be a timing chain issue.

[Black97]

Get a second or third opinion. I know it cost money but at least you figure out what it wrong.

They see that you are desperate and when you tell them the story they try to take you to the cleaners.

[NY_Rebel]

Originally posted by Joe 1320
It's pretty hard for me to diagnose anything without having hands on. My bet is that something is leaking fluid into a combustion chamber. Whether it be fuel or water, neither of can be compressed. I suspect some type of hydo lock. Again, unless I se it, I really can't comment. If it were mine, I would pull it into the garage and start with the obvious. Compression, fuel and spark. Heck, it could even be a timing chain issue.

Joe is right about hydraulic lockup, EXCEPT....with hydraulic lockup you can "back" the engine down, the EXCEPTION to that would be if you have 2 or more cylinders filled with liquid and one piston is trying to go up against a closed chamber when being reversed. The easiest way to eliminate hydraulic lock as the problem is to remove ALL the sparkplugs. This opens the cylinders and the engine can expell any liguid that has accumulated. Don't spin the engine with the starter to do this, because if the cylinder is filled with fuel, it will shoot it all over the engine compartment, turn it manually.
Now, if you have all the spark plugs out and you cannot turn the engine manually, you have internal engine damage. If your engine hydraulic locked you can STILL HAVE ROD DAMAGE, this can be caused simply by attempting to crank it. Liquid cannot be compressed, so....if you have liquid in the cylinder that is greater than the combustion chamber volume, something has to "give" in order for the engine to complete it's rotation and the rod is the "weak" link there.
If you don't trust your mechanic, you have a problem, the only way to know for sure what's going on is to get someone down there with you that does know about engines and get the mechanic to show him what he has checked, how he checked it, and then go from there.
This is also a good time for you to take a lot of notes so you can't be "taken" by a dishonest mechanic in the future.
And BTW, not all indy, backyard shop mechanics are rip off artist, there are some VERY GOOD ONES out there. As a matter of fact, most of the BEST ALL AROUND mechanics are indy's.

[Kevin - Blown 95 TA]

Originally posted by NY_Rebel
Joe is right about hydraulic lockup, EXCEPT....with hydraulic lockup you can "back" the engine down, the EXCEPTION to that would be if you have 2 or more cylinders filled with liquid and one piston is trying to go up against a closed chamber when being reversed. The easiest way to eliminate hydraulic lock as the problem is to remove ALL the sparkplugs.

This is what I was going to suggest. Also, send in your oil for analysis, but I don't have the name of the place we use handy. You will find places on the internet, though. The analysis will show whether there is gas, bearing material, etc. in the engine oil and give a rough diagnosis. Then you will know if the engine is healthy. There's no way you would have seized & destroyed bearings and not have it show up on this type of test. Best of all, it only costs a few bucks. Aside from that, fix whatever bad electrical connections you have, and do it the right way. Good luck.

[Jeff_in_Atl]

Ya'll have made a lot of sense. Let me try and paraphrase this to give to your mechanic.

I bet the engine stopped turning after several attempts at measuring the fuel pressure.

Preamble
We the people of the F-Body message board in order to create life in an older car. LOL skip this.

Possible problem.
Fuel injector sticking open.

Symptoms.
1. Fuel pressure going away after fuel pump shuts off.
2. Engine won't turn but 1 way.


If the fuel injector is hanging open probably from the sugar in it, it would allow excess fuel to flow into the cylinder when the engine not running. You turn the key on, the pump starts running. With the fuel injector hanging open, it allows fuel to flow into the cylinder. When the fuel pump stops running like 5 seconds after the key is turned on, the excess fuel continues to flow into the cylinder until the excess pressure is gone. This sounds like what it is doing.

After turning the key on and off a few times, enough fuel is in the cylinder not allowing it to turn past the top center from the compression cycle to the fire cycle. However, you will be able to turn it backwards until it goes back around twice back through the fire stroke to the compression stroke (remember it's turning backwards). Now as mention before, this could be happening with more than 1 cylinder so it may not turn backwards 2 full turns.

diagnosis
Step 1, take out all 8 plugs. (I bet when you take out the one on the cylinder with a bad injector, since it is up on the compression stroke, the fuel will squirt out.)

Step 2, turn the motor over 4 or 5 times by hand to make sure it will turn over.

Step 3, turn the key on and off 3 or 4 times while someone is under the car looking for gas to come out the spark plug holes. (if the piston is up at the top of cylinder, it may come out before turning the engine by hand.) Then turn the engine over by hand at least 2 turns watching for gas to come out the spark plug holes. Which ever does, will have a bad injector.

Step 4, change the oil. I'm sure it has fuel in it.

Solution
Replace all 8 injectors. I would advise replacing all 8. Injectors are very precise parts and anything in them will screw it up. It may be that the cleaning solution they used, probably kerosene, won't dissolve the residue from the sugar.

Anybody can take this and re-word it to make it sound better or fix errors. I'm not proud. Just trying to help.

[TraceZ]

Originally posted by Jeff 95 Z28
Ya'll have made a lot of sense. Let me try and paraphrase this to give to your mechanic.

I bet the engine stopped turning after several attempts at measuring the fuel pressure.

Preamble
We the people of the F-Body message board in order to create life in an older car. LOL skip this.

Possible problem.
Fuel injector sticking open.

Symptoms.
1. Fuel pressure going away after fuel pump shuts off.
2. Engine won't turn but 1 way.


If the fuel injector is hanging open probably from the sugar in it, it would allow excess fuel to flow into the cylinder when the engine not running. You turn the key on, the pump starts running. With the fuel injector hanging open, it allows fuel to flow into the cylinder. When the fuel pump stops running like 5 seconds after the key is turned on, the excess fuel continues to flow into the cylinder until the excess pressure is gone. This sounds like what it is doing.

After turning the key on and off a few times, enough fuel is in the cylinder not allowing it to turn past the top center from the compression cycle to the fire cycle. However, you will be able to turn it backwards until it goes back around twice back through the fire stroke to the compression stroke (remember it's turning backwards). Now as mention before, this could be happening with more than 1 cylinder so it may not turn backwards 2 full turns.

diagnosis
Step 1, take out all 8 plugs. (I bet when you take out the one on the cylinder with a bad injector, since it is up on the compression stroke, the fuel will squirt out.)

Step 2, turn the motor over 4 or 5 times by hand to make sure it will turn over.

Step 3, turn the key on and off 3 or 4 times while someone is under the car looking for gas to come out the spark plug holes. (if the piston is up at the top of cylinder, it may come out before turning the engine by hand.) Then turn the engine over by hand at least 2 turns watching for gas to come out the spark plug holes. Which ever does, will have a bad injector.

Step 4, change the oil. I'm sure it has fuel in it.

Solution
Replace all 8 injectors. I would advise replacing all 8. Injectors are very precise parts and anything in them will screw it up. It may be that the cleaning solution they used, probably kerosene, won't dissolve the residue from the sugar.

Anybody can take this and re-word it to make it sound better or fix errors. I'm not proud. Just trying to help.

That is fairly good reasoning. I would recommend removing the fuel rail from the manifold and then pressurizing it to check for a leaking injector. Stick a bottle cap or something below each injector and see which ones drip.

I dont think you will be able to detect it otherwise, like mentioned above looking for fuel coming out of a plug hole. If the piston is down, the bore would have to fill up with half a liter of fuel before it came out the plug hole.

[Craig 94 TA GT]

Thanks for all your help. It really means a lot to me.
I know it's hard to diagnose the problem when you can't actually work on the car. I feel the same way because the car is locked up in the shop!

Here are a few tests I conducted previously.
As soon as I got the car back from the pump/filter replacement and the injector cleaning, I noticed the fuel pressure drop off. The mechanic claimed that he tested it like that before he worked on it. I tried to say "no", but he just said, "do you think I'm lying to you?" So then he suggested the regulator or injectors. I said I could do it myself. I conducted this test:
I pulled up the fuel rails with the injectors still on, and pressurized the system. I didn't see one bit of gas coming from any of the injectors - not even a trace. Yet, the pressure bleed off was 43 to 0 in 2 seconcs.
Of course, I did check them when the car still actually ran. I hadn't had a chance to check it when it wouldn't start anymore.
Another test I performed was placing a fuel shut-off valve between the regulator and return line. The manual states that if the pressure goes above 47 psi when you gradually close the valve, the regulator is bad. As soon as the valve was a bit closed, the pressure was up to 53 psi, which does fail that test. But again, I don't see how the regulator can cause hydralock. Unless...could it have placed so much backpressure on the system, that it fouled the injectors, which are now starting to leak? I did notice that more recently the pressure dropped off from 43 to 0 psi nearly instantly, which is much faster than before.

I don't know whether to tell him to conduct the "right" tests, or to take it back and do it all myself. I'm afraid, if it is hydrolocked, and he tries to crank it over, I will have a bent rod.

[Dave M]

If it were me and it wasn't my daily driver, meaning you didn't need it for transportation right away, I would have it towed back to my house and start with what the guys on the board have said. Me, I'd just upgrade to an AFPR and new injectors (a needeed repair is always a good excuse to upgrade), change the oil and plugs going along the guidlines above and see what happens. Since you're dealing with an insurance company, you have to throw that in there too.

Bottom line: I'd do the work myself and see the silver lining... now you get to upgrade the broken parts.

[fastTa]

I have broken many motors from drag racing and I can tell you the sound of a broken rod or a broken wrist pin is unmistakeable!

It is possible to show compression in that cylinder if the piston is still attached to the rod and the wrist pin has just either cracked or come loose. But you will still hear condiderable noise from even this. I doubt you have a seized bottom end Craig.

I really think it is your FPR gone sour.

If there is one or a few cylinders full of gas then it could cause the motor to not turn over. This would be the hydraulic lock situation you described.

Man this car is really being a pain in the "arse" huh!

[Craig 94 TA GT]

Yup, this is the biggest pain in the I have dealt with!!!! It just won't stop...keeps getting worse.

I'm glad I have heard no loud noises. When it ran, it didn't make any kind of funny noises at all...just idled rough. I too doubted that I threw a rod or something similar. I just hope and pray that it wasn't previously locked up from gas filling the cylinder, and me trying to start it bent a rod.

I hope and pray I don't have this:
Piston and connecting rod

[Craig 94 TA GT]

I just found this on camaroz28.com:

"I had the stock regulator go out and it filled the cylinders with so much fuel that the engine hydrolocked resulting in a shattered starter."

I didn't know this was possible. But has anyone else heard of this?

[fastTa]

Craig, if by any chance you end up having some damaged rods, I have all of my stock rods and from my car. You are welcome to have them for free if you need them. I have no use for them.