Raced new cobra and older GT...

[fastTa]

Originally posted by Al 96 Ram Air T/A
in this case, you'll have to shake my bro'in laws hand. He ran a 12.46 @ 114.99 with the stock tires, 2.008 60'. The car, my litlle sisters, has less than 7,500 on the odometer and no mods as of yet. You are greatly misinformed about the Cobras. Hot Rod TV just did a bolt on mod fest with an 03 Cobra. It laid down 364 rwhp in stock trim. After less than $500 in mods (smaller pulley and HPP re-tune), the car tested out at 426 rwhp. I challenge anyone to gain 60+ hp for less than $500 on a Z06 or F-body without spraying or blowing. ...I'll buy it, patent it, and make millions. At 426 rwhp, the car should run high 11's with drag radials.

Don't get me wrong...I'm a GM man, but you've got to give it up for Ford on this one. No where else on the planet can you get a legitamate 400 hp car for approx. $35K. At upwards of $55K, the Z06 is a match...but not in price.

I guess some people just don't get it.

You CANNOT compare a boosted car to a NA car! Go spend some time on z06vette.com and you will find dozens of minor-bolt on Z06's earning 11 second timeslips.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Not only that, but, ummm... a stock Z06 will trap in the vicinity of 115 mph.

That is 345-350 rwhp (only 15-20 less), but it is more aerodynamic, and weighs 600+ lbs less!

Something is fishy.

[Al 96 Ram Air T/A]

Fishy? What do you mean?

And when people say "minor" bolt ons...they're usually talking a couple of grand in parts. Ever price a cat back for a vette? Or, check out what a set of headers will cost you. Minor bolt ons...i.e. $500....will not produce 426 rwhp on a Z06. However, heads, cam, and exhaust will...it's just gonna cost you another $4,000 over the $55k asking price to get in the game. While we're at it, everyone complains you can't compare a boosted car to a NA car. Hogwash! Well, I say, you can't compare a 5.7L car to a 4.6L car either. As far as I'm concerned, the boost makes up for the cubic inch difference...so it is apples to apples. Let's face it guys...GM is lagging behind in the low cost horsepower race. Not only is Ford and Chrysler kicking their butt, but just about every rice-rocket is doing it now as well (i.e. Evo and STi)

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by Al 96 Ram Air T/A
Fishy? What do you mean?

And when people say "minor" bolt ons...they're usually talking a couple of grand in parts. Ever price a cat back for a vette? Or, check out what a set of headers will cost you. Minor bolt ons...i.e. $500....will not produce 426 rwhp on a Z06. However, heads, cam, and exhaust will...it's just gonna cost you another $4,000 over the $55k asking price to get in the game. While we're at it, everyone complains you can't compare a boosted car to a NA car. Hogwash! Well, I say, you can't compare a 5.7L car to a 4.6L car either. As far as I'm concerned, the boost makes up for the cubic inch difference...so it is apples to apples. Let's face it guys...GM is lagging behind in the low cost horsepower race. Not only is Ford and Chrysler kicking their butt, but just about every rice-rocket is doing it now as well (i.e. Evo and STi)

Check out some of my other posts on the 03 Cobra on this board - and in the other thread too. You will find me agreeing with all the points you just made. We're on the same side.

However, by "fishy" I mean that I don't believe a 364 rwhp 3700 lb car can run a 12.4 @ 115 quarter mile... I don't think the 115 mph trap speed is consistent with the car's power and weight... and I don't think a 12.4 is consistent with the stock F1 tires.

I make 345 rwhp. The best I could get was 13.1 @ 109. Now, I weigh less, and I have better tires. You can attribute some of his better time to driver ability, sure... but there is just too much of a gap here for me to believe.

Especially when most Cobras that I hear of had a hard time hitting 12s stock because they are so traction limited by the F1 tires.

[fastTa]

Originally posted by Al 96 Ram Air T/A
Fishy? What do you mean?

And when people say "minor" bolt ons...they're usually talking a couple of grand in parts. Ever price a cat back for a vette? Or, check out what a set of headers will cost you. Minor bolt ons...i.e. $500....will not produce 426 rwhp on a Z06. However, heads, cam, and exhaust will...it's just gonna cost you another $4,000 over the $55k asking price to get in the game. While we're at it, everyone complains you can't compare a boosted car to a NA car. Hogwash! Well, I say, you can't compare a 5.7L car to a 4.6L car either. As far as I'm concerned, the boost makes up for the cubic inch difference...so it is apples to apples. Let's face it guys...GM is lagging behind in the low cost horsepower race. Not only is Ford and Chrysler kicking their butt, but just about every rice-rocket is doing it now as well (i.e. Evo and STi)

There are several 2003+ Z06's in the paper for less than 38K. By minor bolt-ons I mean lid, filter, and cam. 60 RWHP is easily obtained by this. Don't be a hater, just accept the fact that the LS1/LS6 is far more advanced than the wanna be ford modular motor.

[fastTa]

With only a cam, ported heads, and injectors, I seriously walked any Cobra around this area.

That is to say a semi-modded NA LT1 kicked a supercharged Cobra's ass! Ford isn't even close to competing with GM.

I have several friends who have modded Cobra's and Saleen's. There cars can't even touch my NA Trans Am. Not even close!!

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by fastTA
By minor bolt-ons I mean lid, filter, and cam. 60 RWHP is easily obtained by this. Don't be a hater, just accept the fact that the LS1/LS6 is far more advanced than the wanna be ford modular motor.

How is a cam a bolt on?

[Detroit_Bird]

By minor bolt-ons I mean lid, filter, and cam. 60 RWHP is easily obtained by this. Don't be a hater, just accept the fact that the LS1/LS6 is far more advanced than the wanna be ford modular motor.

Throwing a blower on a V8 is an excellent way to make power, but it avoids doing actual reengineering on the motor. 4.6L, Twin Cams, 6500RPM redline, all should add up to close to the 390HP it makes in blower trim. (Honda can put out 200HP in a 2.0L NA twin cam)

GM has held the power edge because it keeps refining what it does best- pushrod V8 (and V6) power. Not to get into the OHV/OHC battle, but GM has made and made good power for 50 YEARS with such motors. By constantly refining this they constantly squeak more power out of them and avoid the headaches of dealing with a completely new motor style.

[Joe 1320]

Originally posted by poopnut2
Cough cough, mach 1, cough cough.

What would happen if lt-1's and ls-1's came charged from the factory? There would be a lot of lt-1's and ls-1's stranded on the road. From my understanding a little work is needed for them to safely run a decent amount of boost.

DUH.


That's because it wasn't intended to use a supercharger....... Had they come from the factory with a supercharger , you can bet that the pistons would have been different, the compression would be different so this arguement is completely invalid.

This whole thread is beating a dead horse arguement. The whole normally aspirated vs. supercharged/turbo comparison is useless. HP is HP, performance is performance. Individual egos get in the way of common sense by trying to justify which is the better method. Whether or not the car is N/A or pressurized doesn't matter. Both GM and Ford build N/A and superchaged motors, they both work. All that really matters is:

The Cobra is quick. The f-body is quick. It's like you guys are trying to compare two different hammers that get cost roughly the same, get the same result but each one is made a little differently. Each company markets it's vehicles slightly different, but the end result is that we should all be glad the HP race is alive like it was in the 60's. Granted we all take pride in our choices and we like to justify that to the bitter end.


How this thread goes from "I raced a Cobra" all the way to the "n/a vs pressurized" routine is sad, so let's put an end to it.

[fastTa]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6
How is a cam a bolt on?

Yeah, I meant to say minor mods.

[markd79ta]

Originally posted by Detroit_Bird
Throwing a blower on a V8 is an excellent way to make power, but it avoids doing actual reengineering on the motor. 4.6L, Twin Cams, 6500RPM redline, all should add up to close to the 390HP it makes in blower trim. (Honda can put out 200HP in a 2.0L NA twin cam)

GM has held the power edge because it keeps refining what it does best- pushrod V8 (and V6) power. Not to get into the OHV/OHC battle, but GM has made and made good power for 50 YEARS with such motors. By constantly refining this they constantly squeak more power out of them and avoid the headaches of dealing with a completely new motor style.

LT5 DOHC late 80s design - ending with 405 HP
Northstar DOHC late 80s design - STS 300hp

Both were greate engines. GM has done the DOHC design (a long time ago). Personally, I would much rather work on a pushrod motor plus I like the low and mid-rpm torque you get with them.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by Al 96 Ram Air T/A
Fishy? What do you mean?

I checked with an 03 Cobra guy from my area on ls1tech, here's what he said...

"Mind if I ask you what 1/4 mile times you ran stock?

13.6 @ 106mph but only because I had never raced an M6 before. I sucked at rowing the gears. The car had tons more in it.

Was that on the F1s?

Yes, it was on F1's.

Stock dyno numbers?

If I recall right, it was 384rwhp bone stock on a dynojet.

I've got a guy on f-body.com telling me his bro-in-law laid down 364 rwhp stock with his Cobra. Sounds normal...

That's normal...maybe a tad bit low.

That was where it stopped making sense. He then said that he ran a 12.46 @ 114.99 on the stock F1 tires. Is this possible?

I have heard of only one '03 Cobra running a 12.4 bone stock. Basically, I don't believe it. The 114mph trap speeds are completely fabricated. It takes a pulley swap or a CAI and full exhaust maybe to hit that. There have been a lot of people to run 12.7's around 110-111mph bone stock though."

I shared this reasoning with him, "Here's a couple reasons why I have a hard time believing this...

my best time is 13.1 @ 109. Yes, there is room for improvement in the ET, but the trap speed shows the power of the car. I make 345 rwhp, 360 rwtq. That is only 20 HP less than this Cobra in question. Now, not only that, but I also weigh 200 lbs less than that Cobra.

With only 20 more rwhp, and weighing 200 lbs more... how exactly is he trapping 6 full mph higher than I am? Most stock 03 Cobra trap speeds that I see fall between 109 and 112 (granted I don't spend much time on the SVT boards, maybe I should).

2nd example... the Z06... on average around 350 rwhp. They weigh 600 lbs less than the Cobra! And 115 is in the vicinity of their stock trap speed.

Compared to those examples, a 3700 lb car with 364 rwhp trapping at 115 mph just isn't adding up to me."

He responded...

"Good analysis. I agree with every statement except '03 Cobra coupes weigh around 3,600-3,650lbs. At least mine does...3,600lbs."

[fastTa]

Originally posted by Al 96 Ram Air T/A
in this case, you'll have to shake my bro'in laws hand. He ran a 12.46 @ 114.99 with the stock tires, 2.008 60'. The car, my litlle sisters, has less than 7,500 on the odometer and no mods as of yet. You are greatly misinformed about the Cobras. Hot Rod TV just did a bolt on mod fest with an 03 Cobra. It laid down 364 rwhp in stock trim. After less than $500 in mods (smaller pulley and HPP re-tune), the car tested out at 426 rwhp. I challenge anyone to gain 60+ hp for less than $500 on a Z06 or F-body without spraying or blowing. ...I'll buy it, patent it, and make millions. At 426 rwhp, the car should run high 11's with drag radials.

Don't get me wrong...I'm a GM man, but you've got to give it up for Ford on this one. No where else on the planet can you get a legitamate 400 hp car for approx. $35K. At upwards of $55K, the Z06 is a match...but not in price.

The 12.46 is conceivable, however the 114.99 trap speed is not. Even assuming a generous 364 RWHP, 114.99 is out of his reach unless he miraculously found a way to squeeze out an additional 50 RWHP in bone stock trim.

[poopnut2]

I've seen 8.3 1/8 mile times and trap 97mph. It just depends on how the whole run is. Maybe the cobra is capable of faster then 12.4's but the stock tires are holding it back.

[Al 96 Ram Air T/A]

Originally posted by fastTA
The 12.46 is conceivable, however the 114.99 trap speed is not. Even assuming a generous 364 RWHP, 114.99 is out of his reach unless he miraculously found a way to squeeze out an additional 50 RWHP in bone stock trim.

Uhoh...now you've done it. Proof is on the way. Maybe even a video...let me see what I can get.