NFB: Alternative fuel vehicles.....

[N20LT4Bird]

I recently went to an instructor training course at Ohio Tech college a few weeks ago. This helps to keep me current on the "latest and the greatest" as I teach. THis year I took a course on alternative fuels. One day was on compressed natural gas, another day I heard a woman from NASA come in and speak on the hydrogen fuel cell, another day was on Bio diesel, and vegetable oil, and then we learned quite a bit about hybrid technology, specifically the Toyota Prius.

I gotta admit, before going in there, I was a little worried as to where the performance car scene would go in fifteen years. After the seminar, im not too worried. With a lot of the alt. fuels, the octane rating is so high, that they will be ADDING performance. For instance, if we ran hydrogen in an internal combustion engine - WOW! You can make some serious power.

And the electric motors - these things will be seriously fun. The "slip" is the distance between the rotor and the stator inside the electric motor. Through computer control, you can vary the "slip curve" of the electric motor to make insane torque. With a large electric motor, some serious voltage, and computer control, you can make a serious performance car.

The one thing about these hybrids though is that they are going to be REAL INTERESTING to work on......some of the technology that goes into these things is wild. And the people that wrote the algorythms for the PCM on the Prius were genious's. THey are dealing with not only the gasoline engine, but the high voltage, low voltage, two electric motor/ generators, a CONvertor, and an INvertor. Crazy.

[wolfdogs]

we have approx. 44,000 alternative fuel vehicles in our fleet, GSA, which is the second largest fleet in the Unitied States, number one being the US Postal Sevice. We have lots of E85's, a few M85's, which we are phasing out of, of course, and lots of CNG's, some dedicated, some bi. the bio diesels are comming ....... we have no "hybrids". and there is controversy over whether the elec. hybrid is truly alt. fuel veh. as you know, many of them dont get as good a gas mileage as the vw golf and comparable. when one studies the operation of the elec. hybrid... it does make you ask "why is this alternative fuel"....... the elec.'s have a long way to go. and range is the prohibiting factor. im not a fan of them at all.

[N20LT4Bird]

we have approx. 44,000 alternative fuel vehicles in our fleet, GSA, which is the second largest fleet in the Unitied States, number one being the US Postal Sevice. We have lots of E85's, a few M85's, which we are phasing out of, of course, and lots of CNG's, some dedicated, some bi. the bio diesels are comming ....... we have no "hybrids". and there is controversy over whether the elec. hybrid is truly alt. fuel veh. as you know, many of them dont get as good a gas mileage as the vw golf and comparable. when one studies the operation of the elec. hybrid... it does make you ask "why is this alternative fuel"....... the elec.'s have a long way to go. and range is the prohibiting factor. im not a fan of them at all.

I guess the electricity is considered the alternative fuel, although it rarely runs on just electricity. I kind of wonder if the all the technology is worth an extra 5-7 mpg. Supposedly, by 2007, Toyota is supposed to have a hybrid option on every model, so they must be selling....

[aschroeger]

I understand they have made the compact hydrogen engine... If memory serves me right, they can now create hydrogen without the complex processes of the past. (ie: fossel fuels)

The article I read on space,com a while back said a motor 3'x3'x3' could heat a 2000 Sq ft. Home... not too shabby...

And the cost was like $0.40 / gal.

It won't be long before there is something besides an internal combustion engine.. I mean, that technology is a hundred years old now... Not too much out there running on 100 years is there?

[wolfdogs]

. Not too much out there running on 100 years is there?

bicycle........

[N20LT4Bird]

I understand they have made the compact hydrogen engine... If memory serves me right, they can now create hydrogen without the complex processes of the past. (ie: fossel fuels)

What do you mean by "compact hydrogen engine"? The fuel cell is fairly compact, it just doesnt have a long life expectancy needed for automobiles.

As for creating hydrogen, it can be extracted from water, but an energy source is needed - that could be fossil fuels, or solar power, or wind, nuclear, etc...

[fastTa]

I think that in due time the hydrogen powered vehicles will start to become commonplace among American drivers. The interesting thing about hydrogen is that even though it is the most abundant gas in the Universe, here on earth it is in a non-reactive form. However we can extract hydrogen in a usable form from water, coal, petroleum, and natural gas.

Another interesting thing to note about hydrogen powered cars is that they aren't powered directly off the hydrogen gas. The mixture of pure ionized oxygen and pure ionized hydrogen creates an electric discharge which is stored and used to power the vehicle. The only by-product of the two combined ionized gases being water.

I think they are a pretty good idea, but it is just going to be hard to get used to driving them since they will also be very quiet.

And this will be especially hard for people like us who love the sound of 8 cylinders screaming at WOT.

[Thomas L. Parker]

Alternative Fuels and Performance

In 1972 I converted my 69 Z-28 to run on propane. A friend of mine was a propane dealer and he had a 1970 455 TransAm running on it so that was the convincing factor.

I used that conversion as a special project at college for a one hour credit to graduate. The change in emissions was dramatic. Performance was virtually identical to operating on gasoline. Throttle response was improved as was cold start / operation.

I ran many autocross events in that configuration. Had one run on gasoline and the other on propane for comparison. Lap times were virtually identical. Propane has been an acceptable alternative fuel in SCCA Solo II since that time.

Seems that I remember a drag racer that built street machines that ran on propane and did quite well.

Alternatives are out there and with equal levels of development as that put into gasoline and diesel engines, we may find that their use will become commonplace in the future.

Tom

[wolfdogs]

biggest prob is availability of fuel. especially for the e85's. the fueling stations are so far and few between. as demmand builds, it will mostl likely iron itself free of wrinkles...but right now... most of the e85 drivers are using gasoline because of lack of ethonol fueling stations.