Why didn't F-Bodies sell?!?

[MyCamaroisGone]

Hello folks. I am new the the forum. I have a 99 Z28 and I absolutely love it. What I want to know is...why in the hell haven't F-Bodies sold well for so long. The Mustangs outsold F-Bodies something like 4 to 1. I don't understand it! IMO, F-Bodies are much, much better than Mustangs (Much faster, look better, etc). Why does the general public seem to disagree?!

Does anyone have a feedback on this? I am very curious!

[RangerBob]

Marketing

GM for some unknown reason quit actively marketing the F-bodies a long time ago. When did you last see a new car TV commercial about one?

Maybe someone can elaborate.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Marketing - absolutely the culprit of the F-Body's demise, no question...

What RangerBob touched on about the advertisements is correct -- the last nationwide campaign that I can remember was in 1998 when the F-Body's got the LS1. Remember the shot of the black WS6 at night at a stop light - growling, looking like it was ready to eat something? I remember it, because my jaw almost hit the floor when I saw it. But by then, it was already too late. That was the last pathetic wimper for air that the marketing group could come up with for a vehicle they knew was already doomed.

How am I sure that it was already doomed? Look at your keychain, your ignition switch, and your control lever on the side of your steering wheel. They look ancient, don't they? GM was updated and changing ALL of their cars' controls except the f-body. This might be subtle... but it's enough to suggest to me that they were content to let it die - and have an avenue to ensure that old parts wouldn't go to waste.

Aside from GM's own ineptitude to educate the public as to how much Mustang (_|_) f-body's were capable of kicking... they made other marketing mistakes as well. Some of the following are my personal opinions, but I have heard several people touch on them as well in other conversations I have had about the same topic.

One mistake was that, especially for the Camaro, it was hard to visually distinguish the high-performance Z28 from the base V6. Firebirds had a little more distinction about them... but in my opinion, it is much easier to tell a Mustang GT or Cobra from a V6 Mustang.

A larger problem was the escalation in price of the f-bodies. A WS6 or SS crept higher and higher in price - while the Corvette remained an "affordable" world-class sportscar. As the price of the high performance f-bodies climbed above $30K - people began to think they could wait just a little longer and buy "America's Sportscar." The Corvette is simply the best sports car value in the world - and yes, it played a part in the death of the f-body.

There was also the mid-range Mustang GT. GM had LS1 powered f-bodies that were comparably priced... but so few people know this that it was the general consensus that a GT was the only V8 pony car you could get for around $26K.

I don't know why GM didn't make it work -- but I don't really believe they tried. Mustangs were everywhere, on TV, on the radio, in magazines, and even "product placement" in TV shows and movies. The death of the f-bodies is one of the best examples of disgraceful marketing I have ever seen. It almost strikes me as though GM wanted to let them die... I just can't figure it out.

It wouldn't have been too difficult. All they had to do was put some cars on TV, in the movies, on the radio, etc... and publish all kinds of information about how badly the f-bodies outperform the Mustangs. Hell, if all else fails, just show a drag race between a basic Firebird Formula or basic Z28 and a Mustang GT (which were comparably priced)... it wouldn't have been difficult to keep them alive.

[Joe 1320]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6
Marketing - absolutely the culprit of the F-Body's demise, no question...

I don't know why GM didn't make it work -- but I don't really believe they tried. Mustangs were everywhere, on TV, on the radio, in magazines, and even "product placement" in TV shows and movies. The death of the f-bodies is one of the best examples of disgraceful marketing I have ever seen. It almost strikes me as though GM wanted to let them die... I just can't figure it out.

You are so correct. On this topic, I can give you an educated analysis. There are several factors that contributed:

Ford is an example of marketing that works. The Mustang is a vehicle that is marketed not to performance gearheads like us, it was originally marketed as a "secretary car"...... an inexpensive and sporty car that Women in the demographic age of 18-36 could purchase as a "throw away" car. "Throw away" means that once things start going wrong, the car was disposed of in some way by either being sold or traded. Ford figured that Women of this age group were less inclined to fix things after the warranty period than Males of the same age group. Women were also less concerned with all out performance, they were more concerned about the perception of high performance and sportiness than generating the performance numbers. The performance variants of the Mustang appealed to the other demographics, but those models weren't intended to drive bottom line profits the way the base car did. Ford was also heavier into the lease and rental end of the business using their base models as well. So basically, the performance models rode the wave that was generated by the base models and only contributed a fraction to the companies bottom line profits.

GM, marketed it's pony car in a different way. Their car was intended to be a performance car for the masses, marketed to Males in the same 18-36 age group and set out to better the performance of the rival Mustang. Here is where us gearheads got the products that we wanted. Unfortunately, the car really wasn't marketed toward the masses. It was targeted toward a smaller niche of performance enthusiasts. There were base models available, supposedly to attract the same people the Mustang was marketed for, but that didn't happen. Since it wasn't targeted toward them starting with the initial design, it never had the depth of product reach in the market.

As society changed and Women had more buying power, Ford's Mustang thrived. GM's Camaro and Firebird still reigned with the performance crowd, but was slipping. Even with superior power to weight, more "racy" lines, it was still slipping. GM knew this and still tried to refine the car with more of the accessories that buyers were getting accustomed to. There lies what would be another nail in the coffin. Affordable performance was disappearing. Toward the end, a well equipped F-body was in many cases $5-10K more than a similar, although slower Mustang.

Could GM have saved the F-body? Of course. Not without major changes. The decision to kill the F-body was a political move as well as a cost cutting measure. It is very evident if you investigate the costs with retooling a plant, it is often cheaper to start from scratch. The last nail in the coffin was that the current f-body was built in Canada and GM wanted out of Canada. It would be far more expensive to retool the plant, keep it open and salaries flowing during downtime where no product was being produced. Gm needed to redesign the product to permit construction along side other models in an existing plant in order to keep the vehicle cost low enough to compete at the same target price. GM discovered that performance gearheads want more performance, but not at an inflated price and that wasn't going to be possible with the current manufacturing contract. The decision was made to kill advertising and let the product die a slow death. With a non selling product in it's current form, the bean countes had every excuse on paper to end the contract and close the plant.

GM will have to piggyback their performance variants of a new Camaro/Firebird on other models that sustain the bottom line profits. Gearheads like us are more likely to fix things when broke, we are less likely to "throw away" the car and get another one. That means less volume of sales. Ford bet on that when it introduced the Mustang and their marketing worked. When GM does the same thing, their bottom line profits for the car will turn around and allow advertising to work it's magic.

Basically, it's all about bottom line.

[BAS]

style and size

Although many people here won't like these views,
I'm going to say it anyways.

The style just doesn't cut it with mainstream America.

The car is too big, the noses are too far forward,
the rear body doesn't do much either.

The car became too expensive too. The frame
is the same frame from 1993, yet prices increased
$20K ...

The GTO is what people want, but whether or not
people will pay the $$$ for one is another question,
which might prevent further sales in USA.

[00 Ragtop Z]

one more comment. when teh 4th gens first came out I did not like the style for the very reason mentioend above--can't see teh front end, can't see the back end--and many wonem just don't like to drive a car they can't see (not intended to be sexist folks-have heard it said)

I admit I love the styling now, but that slooooping windehsield still turns a lot of folks off--hard having the dining room table in front of you udnder teh windshield.

The f-body just got too bulky for many, and coupled with no advertising --'that'sall, folks!."

[SteveH'95Formula]

If you are worried about seeing the "front end" then a sports car is defenetly NOT for you. No body complains that the Corvette front end is too low. Alo there where complaints about the catilytic convertor "hump" it supposedly protruded into the passenger leg room. When your feet are all the way in you don't notice it anyway. I for one one am happy the F-bodies are not selling. In the long run are cars will be more valuable. Just like the 1st gen. and now the early 2nd gen. cars in good condition are starting to fetch a good price. I have a '79 Camaro I'm working on (Yes I own 2 F-bodys!) and it is looking great. I'm sure in another 10 years or so if I decide to sell it, I'll get a good price for it. But it all boils down to demand. If there are not a lot of cars out there then there can only be a limited number for sale.

[BAS]

thats the thing

There are complaints that we don't hear about
as f-body & y-body owners.

Yes, alot of people think the corvette is too low
to the ground, etc, etc.

I couldn't believe what I heard in a dealership -
someone looking at a 30th Anniversary Trans Am
said they would REMOVE the blue stripes if they
bought because they didn't like them. !!!!

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Re: thats the thing

Originally posted by BAS
There are complaints that we don't hear about
as f-body & y-body owners.

Yes, alot of people think the corvette is too low
to the ground, etc, etc.

I couldn't believe what I heard in a dealership -
someone looking at a 30th Anniversary Trans Am
said they would REMOVE the blue stripes if they
bought because they didn't like them. !!!!

A lot of people prefer the cleaner look -- I happen to be one of them. I wouldn't remove any striping on an anniversary edition, but the striping and decals would be enough to make me not want to buy an anniversary edition to begin with.

[Joe K. 99 Zeee!!]

Here's a biggy...Remember when GM invested a ton 'o money into their production facilities so that they could increase production at their plants?

That's fine if you have enough demand to support that kind of volume production. But at the Quebec plant they only produced Camaro and Firebird. The demand for the cars was just not enough to support a plant that was then able to churn out at least 200,000 units/year.

On top of that they cut funding for the car's development and didn't come up with any plans for a future platform or production at another plant. Considering this we're lucky that there were devoted people inside the company that pushed to keep production going until 2002. In 2003 new safety standards would have required redisigning the A pillar and the roof structure along with it. In the end the investment required was too large considering the car was on an outdated platform in production at a plant running well below capacity. By the time that was apparent it was too late to develop a new model for 2003 or even until 2006.

Keep your ears alert though. Camaro will be back and word is we'll be getting new news sooner than you think.

For more info go to CamaroZ28.com message board and search for a post titled "gongos survey" by Danno02SS.

Keep the faith....

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Re: style and size

Originally posted by BAS
Although many people here won't like these views,
I'm going to say it anyways.

The style just doesn't cut it with mainstream America.

The car is too big, the noses are too far forward,
the rear body doesn't do much either.

The car became too expensive too. The frame
is the same frame from 1993, yet prices increased
$20K ...

The GTO is what people want, but whether or not
people will pay the $$$ for one is another question,
which might prevent further sales in USA.

I dunno man...

I get so many compliments everywhere I go on the car - I am sure many of you here do too. It's so funny to watch the little kids reactions as I roll down the block and they crane their necks around to watch the car as long as they can. I think they are pretty strikingly good-looking cars... and from the reactions I have gotten, so do most people.

And I agree with the other post, that if you are buying a sportscar... the length of the nose really shouldn't be of any concern.

[markd79ta]

I think the biggest problem is the base model vs. the imports. Most of the 20 somethings are not going to buy a base Firebird or Camaro; instead they are going to get all of this import ****. That is just the times we are living in. The older crowd, especially the women would rather have the Mustang. The Mustangs have more road clearance and it is easier to get in and out of them. From what I saw, the WS6s and the SSs sold extremely well...at least in my area as well as when I lived in Washington State. It took me six months in Washington just to find a Black T/A with a six speed (not even a WS6.) Anyhow, GM would have been better served to make it a lower production car as an all out performer, eliminating the V6 model, and let the F.O.R.D. guys have their cruiser Mustang. I remember the '98 advertising campaign really well. The WS6 models were all on back order, and of them over made it to the lot; they were all sold prior to delivery. I seriously don't think it is styling; ...even some of my fiancee's import minded friends love the styling of my T/A. Additionally, the plant had some real quality control problems, and production needed to be moved to a better facility. Oh well, I don't think it really matters at this point...what's done is done. I just hope see another big, burly, RWD, T/A muscle car again someday! Until then I will enjoy the ones that I have!