The new GTO (Longwinded, but read anyway!)

[MyCamaroisGone]

OK you folks have some really excellent points here. Upon second thought, I am really excited for the future of GM, but I am bored with them right now. I'm not sure what GM is going for with the GTO, but I was under the impression this was supposed to be the answer for everyone who wants a brand new LS1 that would smoke their old LS1 cars.

I totally agree if GM only makes 18000 of these a year, they will definitely be hard to find. But if they were going to produce them on scale with the last F-body model year production numbers, I think it would fail miserably. I just can't see a demand for a car that "comforably seats two adults" and has a performance not quite on par with the last round of LS1's. It seems like it's trying to be too many things at one time, but won't do anything of them particularly well. Then again, I do find it hard to believe that a 350hp LS1 will only do 0-60 in “less than 6 seconds,” so maybe we should all just wait and see.

I do agree that we should give GM some credit for taking chances...but Ford is also taking a lot of chances lately and they are knocking people’s socks off. It should be safe to say they owned the last NAIAS, while GM was fairly quiet with exception to the Cadillac Sixteen. Actually, Cadillac is a MAJOR exception IMO to the state of GM. They are taking chances galore and I love what they are doing. The XLR is gorgeous and the CTS V-Series is going to simply be awesome. I also like where Pontiac is going with the GXP line. Back to the Chevy front, a V8 RWD Monte Carlo would be awesome and a new, restyled Camaro would force me to find a change of underpants. The new C6 will hopefully start re-handing the Cobras their asses and the new Z06 should compete with the Viper (for more than one gear like the current).

I guess the last paragraph somewhat contradicts my first post, but overall I was ranting about some recent bad GM decisions. I still think the GTO will disappoint, even if it’s because people like me are expecting something other than what GM is building. I also think the SSR is a terrible decision and is going to flop on scale with the Lincoln Blackwood. The SSR doesn’t do ANYTHING well. It’s a slow, unpractical vehicle. At least my unpractical Camaro hauls ass. As far as the Silverado SS is concerned…I love the vehicle, but it cost too damn much! I just wish GM wouldn’t have let Ford and other automakers gain so much momentum on them.

Overall, the future looks good at GM…just not the near future.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by MyCamaroisGone
... I was under the impression this was supposed to be the answer for everyone who wants a brand new LS1 that would smoke their old LS1 cars...

Yeah... the GTO was never intended to be a direct replacement for the f-body. It is supposed to be just like it was... a performance oriented family car.

Originally posted by MyCamaroisGone
...but Ford is also taking a lot of chances lately and they are knocking people’s socks off...

The GT is coming out, and the Mustang and Lightning will be restyled for 2005... anything else? I continue to be unimpressed with Ford. Meanwhile, I can think of at least 7 new or completely re-styled performance-oriented GM vehicles soon to hit the market. Ford = blah.

Originally posted by MyCamaroisGone
...Overall, the future looks good at GM…just not the near future...

Family board... can't really say what I want to say to this...

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by Guapo
Off topic... but there's something to be said for a truck that can almost keep up with an SS or WS6 for around the same price.
You should see the face of an unsuspecting F-bod owner who thinks the "Lightning" on the side of my truck is just a badge and a body kit.

I guess you are right... any car that meets its market does exactly what it is supposed to do. If the market wants a Cavalier to go 0-60 in 5 seconds... I guess GM is wise to give them that. Likewise for Ford if the market wants a Lightning...

I just don't understand WHY the market exists for them.

[MyCamaroisGone]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6
The GT is coming out, and the Mustang will be restyled for 2005... anything else? I continue to be unimpressed with Ford. Meanwhile, I can think of at least 7 new or completely re-styled performance-oriented GM vehicles soon to hit the market. Ford = blah.



Family board... can't really say what I want to say to this...

Hahaha Let me have it. I can take it. By future, understand I meant the next two model years IMO. After that, I believe GM is going to grab me and say, "Dean!! What are you talking about you dork, look at what we are offering you?!?!" and I will say "yes, you guys are absolutely right." I was just saying, at this very moment, GM doesn't have one car that interests me that I would consider buying for less than $35k.

Now to the Ford brands front. Lets start with Ford specifically. Their first showstopper was the 03 Cobra. This car is simply awesome for the price. The redesigned Thunderbird was also a very attractive and unique car, although it didn't sell as well as some would have expected. They then unveiled the GT40 "concept car" at the 2002 NAIAS and shortly thereafter announced plans to produce this beast. Then at the 2003 NAIAS they dropped the new redesigned Mustang and Lightning. Both were showstoppers. As of late, the new, completely redesigned F-150 is getting great reviews all over the industry. That's about it for Ford.

Now for the other Ford brands...let's start with the Mazda6. This car is winning awards left and right and is, IMO and others, a really impressive vehicle. The Protege5 is getting solid reviews everywhere also. Then there is the Jaguar brand. Jaguar sales have been through the roof the last few years, lead by the X-Type. The new Jaguar XJR is simply blowing people away. The following quote is from Car and Driver; "If the numbers prove correct, it could be a case of a cat among a bunch of pigeons."

Landrover and Volvo sales have also been soaring since Ford acquired them. Lincoln has been pretty impressive as of late too with the LS, Navigator and the new Aviator.

Ford definitely seems to be heading in the right direction, I just hope GM answers and maintains the title of "World's #1 Automaker"


PS I am not a "Ford Lover" but have been impressed with the direction Bill Ford Jr. has steered them in.

[MyCamaroisGone]

Originally posted by Guapo
Off topic... but there's something to be said for a truck that can almost keep up with an SS or WS6 for around the same price.
You should see the face of an unsuspecting F-bod owner who thinks the "Lightning" on the side of my truck is just a badge and a body kit.

Guapo, what exactly are the performance specs for your truck? Everyone talks about how it's a Camaro killer or Mustang killer, but I think you said it best yourself with " truck that can almost keep up with an SS or WS6." In reality, this truck will not beat an LS1 F-body, but it will stay close...correct?

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by MyCamaroisGone
Hahaha Let me have it. I can take it. By future, understand I meant the next two model years IMO. After that, I believe GM is going to grab me and say, "Dean!! What are you talking about you dork, look at what we are offering you?!?!" and I will say "yes, you guys are absolutely right." I was just saying, at this very moment, GM doesn't have one car that interests me that I would consider buying for less than $35k.

Now to the Ford brands front. Lets start with Ford specifically. Their first showstopper was the 03 Cobra. This car is simply awesome for the price. The redesigned Thunderbird was also a very attractive and unique car, although it didn't sell as well as some would have expected. They then unveiled the GT40 "concept car" at the 2002 NAIAS and shortly thereafter announced plans to produce this beast. Then at the 2003 NAIAS they dropped the new redesigned Mustang and Lightning. Both were showstoppers. As of late, the new, completely redesigned F-150 is getting great reviews all over the industry. That's about it for Ford.

Now for the other Ford brands...let's start with the Mazda6. This car is winning awards left and right and is, IMO and others, a really impressive vehicle. The Protege5 is getting solid reviews everywhere also. Then there is the Jaguar brand. Jaguar sales have been through the roof the last few years, lead by the X-Type. The new Jaguar XJR is simply blowing people away. The following quote is from Car and Driver; "If the numbers prove correct, it could be a case of a cat among a bunch of pigeons."

Landrover and Volvo sales have also been soaring since Ford acquired them. Lincoln has been pretty impressive as of late too with the LS, Navigator and the new Aviator.

Ford definitely seems to be heading in the right direction, I just hope GM answers and maintains the title of "World's #1 Automaker"


PS I am not a "Ford Lover" but have been impressed with the direction Bill Ford Jr. has steered them in.

I guess I don't really consider Mazda, Volvo, or Jaguar Ford "brands" so to speak... more like subsidiaries. Subaru is a subsidiary to GM in a similar way -- so if you consider the aforementioned cars to be "Ford products" then the STi should be considered a GM product as well.

The new Cobra is no doubt sweet... likewise for the GT40 and Lightning.

But with the C6 soon to whoop on Vipers, the CTS-V soon to give lessons to the M5, the GTO set to be the only car in its class, the XLR about to become the most beautiful car on the road, the G6 concept about to take over for the Grand Am (the conspet had a supercharged V6 with 285 HP and AWD), the Grand Prix GTP now making 280 ft-lbs of torque, Saturn coming out with their "Red-Line" vehicles, the Cadillac STS being re-styled... I could continue, but I just see so much more progress with GM. They killed their ponycar, and they don't have an answer to the GT40... so their emphasis isn't the same as it used to be. They seem now to be focused on delivering performance to all types of vehicles... practicality first - then performance. It's just different from what we grew accustomed to.

GM may not have an answer to the Mustang, GT40, or Lightning... but what Ford can compete with the XLR? The C6? The GTO? The CTS-V? The GTP? They are as inadequate in those categories as GM is in the ones Ford is sufficient in.

Also...
Protege = crap compared to the SVT Focus, or SRT-4
Mazda 6 = crap compared to Nissan Altima (actually, the Grand Prix GTP kinda is too...)

[Christopherrr]

Originally posted by MyCamaroisGone
Now for the other Ford brands...let's start with the Mazda6. This car is winning awards left and right and is, IMO and others, a really impressive vehicle. The Protege5 is getting solid reviews everywhere also. Then there is the Jaguar brand. Jaguar sales have been through the roof the last few years, lead by the X-Type. The new Jaguar XJR is simply blowing people away. The following quote is from Car and Driver; "If the numbers prove correct, it could be a case of a cat among a bunch of pigeons."

Mazda isn't a Ford Brand my friend...they joined together as a joint venture in the early 90s...Explorer/Navajo, Ranger/B Series. Now the Escape/Tribute. Much like GM and Toyota...Corolla/Prism, Matrix/Vibe... If I'm not mistaken, the 6 was a Mazda design...only using Fords Duratec V6. Personally, I think a more direct relationship with Ford would be more of a favorable comparison...Ford and Lincoln Vs. Chevy and Cadillac. Pound for pound...I feel GM makes better cars than Ford. I don't think Ford has much of a influence of the direction of subsidaries...now the X type is basically a "upscaled" version of Ford's Modeo...so, that's my 2 cents. SVT had to add a SC to even compete with a F-body...give me a break...build a all motor car, or truck for that matter, that out runs a GM product. Slap a SC on aSS Silverado or a SS Camaro and see the outcome.

Now, I feel that GM will be on top again...GM is surging forward. Personally...I can feel the momentum. GM's new XLR is probably the best product to ever roll out of any GM plant. I know that GM has major issues to address, but they are doing much better than before...Lutz is the man, and I feel he is gonna bring GM back to the new age with amazing machinary. I just hope I make enough money by then to enjoy some of his new products.

All I have to say is, GM got trown to the back seat in the 80s and early 90s...but they are making a strong comeback. Give it time guys...GM will be #1 again. I know it...remember, they want to be on top more than we do. They just have to make some decisions that might not make sense to us to do it.

[Guapo]

Originally posted by MyCamaroisGone
Guapo, what exactly are the performance specs for your truck? ... In reality, this truck will not beat an LS1 F-body, but it will stay close...correct?

Well, yeah... but think about it. A $30K SPORTS CAR against a $30K truck. The 30K car better smoke the truck. Guys are pulling 13.6 quarter miles, stock. With a chip, pulley, and filter (more boost) they're in the 12s. Stock for stock, mod for mod, yeah, the LS1 will beat the Lightning. But the fact that the truck can even compete says alot about the truck, no? I'm stock, and while I don't street race often... my friend's WS6 couldn't break from me. -shrug- It's a muscle car that a 6'7, 260 lb guy (me) can fit in comfortably, haul junk, and tow stuff. And when you're through with that, you can surprise the socks off almost any other driver out there. And it's puurty.

[Kevin - Blown 95 TA]

So, Guapo, when you drove the Camaro, did you take off the T-top and stick your head out, or just throw out the front seat altogether and sit in the back ???

[MyCamaroisGone]

Originally posted by LimTeng99TransAm
Mazda isn't a Ford Brand my friend...they joined together as a joint venture in the early 90s...Explorer/Navajo, Ranger/B Series. Now the Escape/Tribute. Much like GM and Toyota...Corolla/Prism, Matrix/Vibe... If I'm not mistaken, the 6 was a Mazda design...only using Fords Duratec V6. Personally, I think a more direct relationship with Ford would be more of a favorable comparison...Ford and Lincoln Vs. Chevy and Cadillac. Pound for pound...I feel GM makes better cars than Ford. I don't think Ford has much of a influence of the direction of subsidaries...now the X type is basically a "upscaled" version of Ford's Modeo...so, that's my 2 cents. SVT had to add a SC to even compete with a F-body...give me a break...build a all motor car, or truck for that matter, that out runs a GM product. Slap a SC on aSS Silverado or a SS Camaro and see the outcome.

Now, I feel that GM will be on top again...GM is surging forward. Personally...I can feel the momentum. GM's new XLR is probably the best product to ever roll out of any GM plant. I know that GM has major issues to address, but they are doing much better than before...Lutz is the man, and I feel he is gonna bring GM back to the new age with amazing machinary. I just hope I make enough money by then to enjoy some of his new products.

All I have to say is, GM got trown to the back seat in the 80s and early 90s...but they are making a strong comeback. Give it time guys...GM will be #1 again. I know it...remember, they want to be on top more than we do. They just have to make some decisions that might not make sense to us to do it.

Sorry, I didn't know I had to be that careful on the specific wording of my post, I figured you guys would get the idea. I will correct myself. Ford owns roughly a 30% controlling stake in Mazda. And if you go to Ford's own website, you will see something that says..."Know what you are looking for? Pick one of our brands and go get it," and right under that, K=Mazda is listed. That coupled with the fact that I work at Ford Motor Company should qualify me to call Mazda a Ford brand, since Ford also does.

Other than that LimTeng, I completely agree with pretty much everything you said. I love GM and think they will easily maintain their status as the top dawg in the auto industry. I guess my post was somewhat misguided in the fact I let 3 bad car decisions (maybe only 2, more on that in my next post) and one painful decision to kill the F-Body seriously dampen my enthusiasm for GM. I also think Ford engineers are lazy and instead of actually finding ways to make a more powerful engine, they just throw a supercharger on their performance cars and call it a day.

One more thing for Jay…the relationship between GM & Suburu and Ford & Jaguar and Volvo is in no way similar. Ford Motor Company owns Jaguar and Volvo. They acquired them when Jacques Nasser was still CEO. I’m not 100% certain, but I don’t think GM owns any of Suburu. Correct me if I’m wrong.

[MyCamaroisGone]

OK, now back to the GTO debate. Today something changed my mind about the GTO. I thought the GTO was supposed to be the new answer for F-Body owners. I thought with an LS1 under the hood, this car should resume the Chevy dominance over the Ford pony car. I was disappointed when the early #'s were a little slow for a car of this type. This car should be sleek, fast and mean, right? WRONG!!

Today I saw this boat driving down the street. It was a very large car with a very healthy rumble coming from user the hood. As I got closer I noticed the badging...GTO. It was a mid 60's GTO. At that instant I knew GM was indeed bringing back the essence of the GTO if it is indeed big enough on the inside for 4 people. I think Jay 02 said it best when he said the GTO is "a performance oriented family car." He is also right in the respect that, there is really no car in the industry that can compare with the new GTO in terms of practicality, performance and price. I just hope there is a demand for it. While I still don't agree with how they toned down the styling of the car, maybe this is a more impressive car than I first gave it credit for.

Only time will tell...

[Guapo]

I, personally, love the GTO. They're pretty much following the tradition. My dad had a 64, what many consider to be 1st real muscle car. As mentioned before, it was just a lemans with a big arsed engine, and a couple badges. Someone said the new one is just a grand prix with a bigger engine and some badges. Hmmm... Pontiac plans more aggressive styling as the modle progress throughout the years. Look at the progression of the GTO from its birth in 64 to the famous "Judge"
Like it or not, at least they're keeping with tradition, and moving in the right direction... even if the price is a little high. I like the idea of something that goes alot faster than it looks. heh.

[JL8Jeff]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6

But with the C6 soon to whoop on Vipers, the CTS-V soon to give lessons to the M5, the GTO set to be the only car in its class, the XLR about to become the most beautiful car on the road, the G6 concept about to take over for the Grand Am (the conspet had a supercharged V6 with 285 HP and AWD), the Grand Prix GTP now making 280 ft-lbs of torque, Saturn coming out with their "Red-Line" vehicles, the Cadillac STS being re-styled... I could continue, but I just see so much more progress with GM. They killed their ponycar, and they don't have an answer to the GT40... so their emphasis isn't the same as it used to be. They seem now to be focused on delivering performance to all types of vehicles... practicality first - then performance. It's just different from what we grew accustomed to.

Jay, you're taking too much stock in the concept vehicles becoming reality and we all know GM usually drops the ball at that point. Also look at what the price of these cars your talking about will be. You won't be able to touch any of them for under $35K. The Z28 sold for around $25K and nothing could come close to it for performance in that price range. The GTO is an interesting idea, but it will price itself out of the market. I sure hope GM has affordable performance cars/trucks in its future, but it's not any time in the near future.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by MyCamaroisGone
...

One more thing for Jay…the relationship between GM & Suburu and Ford & Jaguar and Volvo is in no way similar. Ford Motor Company owns Jaguar and Volvo. They acquired them when Jacques Nasser was still CEO. I’m not 100% certain, but I don’t think GM owns any of Suburu. Correct me if I’m wrong.

GM defintiely owns part of Subaru.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by JL8Jeff
Jay, you're taking too much stock in the concept vehicles becoming reality and we all know GM usually drops the ball at that point...

How so? Really, the only concept vehicle I mentioned was the G6 (I don't expect it to stay 285 HP and AWD though). The others I think are all ready for production.