69 Z/28 VS. 95 T/A

[Nightrage]

Yesterday i came home with my girlfriend and my stepdad was in the garage. He has a 69 Z/28 RS with a 302 in it. I think it's a really nice looking car. It's hugger orange with two white stripes going right down the center of the hood and the tail. I said to him "I'd really like to have a car like this some day only i'd want to drop a newer motor in it." He asked why i'd rather have a newer motor than one that would come stock in an old muscle car. My response was- "They were cool and all but they weren't as powerful as people make them seem and they got bad gas mileage". He then told me that you can't get a fast car with good gas mileage. I told him that my car gets pretty good gas mileage and his response was- "Yeah but your car can't perform like the old ones". With this, my face dropped. I've seen tons of magazine and internet articles saying that they used to dyno the motor before it was in a car and than they advertised with that number. Also, many old cars taht are supposed to me monsters are actually quite overrated. For example- In the November issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines, a 64 Oldsmobile F85 4-4-2 is listed as running the quarter in 15.5. It allegedly has 310 horsepower and 355 ft-lbs of torque and only weighs 3,307lbs. My car which weighs more and has less advertised power has been known to run 14.2-ish stock. My stepdad thinks that his car will stomp mine and he thinks his car would run 13's (he just had the motor fully rebuilt and bored .30 over but it's otherwise bone stock aside from his exhaust) but for some reason, i remember seeing a test where a 69 Z/28 RS was run against a stock 91 or 92 Camaro with a 305 in it and the 305 won. Since i'm not into rubbing things into peoples faces, i decided to leave it at that with a "Yeah, i'm sure it'd be a really close race". No sarcasm or anything, i just don't feel like getting into a heated debate over something as stupid as this. I decided to ask you guys just for my own personal satisfaction. If i raced my car against my stepdad's, who would win?

[Joe 1320]

Alot depends on the options and mods. A 302 that is properly optioned can be a nice performer. If the 69 is as stock as you say, all he'll see is your tail lights. If he is suckering you and the car has some serious mods like heads, cam, gears, etc... it can be darned close.

[raroZ28]

You'd smoke him. Those cars are hogs. If he even pulled a high 14 I would be suprised.

[Z Ya Later]

Ummmm, 69 Z28s were not slow by any means. A stock one with 4.56 gears pulled a low 13 1/4 back in 69. I'll get a hold of Craig and have him dig up the article. Needless to say, the old DZ302 was a beast. Only advertised at 290 hp, actual hp was closer to 400 stock. It may be old, but not slow. I'd be careful.

[Craig 94 TA GT]

The 69s were not slow, however, needed a few small things to get it really quick. Steve I think we missed a part in the article that listed the mods they did to run that quick lol. I just learned of it now by reading part of the article on the side...
From "Hi Performance Cars" 4/69: A '69 Z28 with the 302, 4 speed Muncie, 3200 lbs, ran a 13.30@106 mph. The 0-30 was 3.0, and 0-60 was 5.5. The car got 8-12 mpg, and the price as tested was $4000.
Anyways, here's what they did:
- new set of 4.56 gears since they said "they are the only way to go with an engine that comes alive at over 3500 RPM and functions eficiently up to 7000 RPM)
- new dual ram quad manfold with 600 cfm carbs that have full mechanical secondary operation and are not fitted with the parts which allow cold weather starting and warm up
- tube headers
- M/P Super-Bite suspension kit consisting of bolt-on bars, 4 custom calibrated shocks, and front coil spring spacers
- They used several sets of tires to see which ones had the best hook up (including Goodyear Blue Streaks and L-series Ingelwoods).
- Recalibrated ignition

So a bolt-on Z28 will scream, but I have no numbers on a bone stock machine.

[Z Ya Later]

You had to mention that detail, didn't you?!?! lol Ok, I stand corrected. But still, the DZ302 was no slouch, so if he's touched it at all, I would be careful.

[Craig 94 TA GT]

Hey sorry man, my fault! I was the one who originally showed the article to you and told you it was stock, so it's completely my fault.

On another note, my dad had a co-worker with a '69 Z28, and took it to the strip. It ran some kind of 14 (not sure of actual numbers) bone stock. The guy was so disappointed (guy wasn't too smart) he took apart the motor and sold the internals. Turns out, the guy who purchased the pistons, also my dad's friend, found out they were a perfectly matched and balanced set.

[Z Ya Later]

I'm just playin' with ya man. Still, that's pretty good for a small block 302 that had hardly any R&D time and was slapped together from other parts. I'd still be careful of it lol.

[Squat13]

The 69' Z28 was my father first car..... He drove my trans am and said that his Z wasnt even near as fast.... he also had some slips from yellow river dragstrip in Georgia that show a 14.2 @98 .... Remember they only had Bias Ply tires back then

[Injuneer]

I wouldn't necessarily count the cross-ram manifold, headers and 4.56 gears as "mods". As I recall, the manifold and headers were available "factory", but came loose in the trunk, for dealer or purchaser installation. It wouldn't surprise me if the 4.56's were a factory option as well. Then there was the "factory" cowl induction fiberglass hood for the cross-ram manifold, also available from the dealer.

We need to get "Jeff JL8" into this thread.... he has one of the 69 Z28's, JL8 4-wheel discs, cross-ram and cowl induction hood in the late stages of restoration. A yellow one like that sold at Barrett-Jackson last year for $112,000

[Squat13]

I wouldn't necessarily count the cross-ram manifold, headers and 4.56 gears as "mods". As I recall, the manifold and headers were available "factory", but came loose in the trunk, for dealer or purchaser installation. It wouldn't surprise me if the 4.56's were a factory option as well. Then there was the "factory" cowl induction fiberglass hood for the cross-ram manifold, also available from the dealer.

We need to get "Jeff JL8" into this thread.... he has one of the 69 Z28's, JL8 4-wheel discs, cross-ram and cowl induction hood in the late stages of restoration. A yellow one like that sold at Barrett-Jackson last year for $112,000

Now I think I also remember My dad telling me that The reson for the 302 CI was the Cubic inch limit in Trans Am racing. I also recall him saying that the Trans Am Seris required all parts used to be factory.... Like the cross ram, Fiberglass hood, Solid lifter cam, and 4.56 gears. I mean those 302's were already wound pretty tight with there 2.02 valves, solid cam, and 8000 RPM redline, and you guys are talking about modding them..... I think headers are all you can do with out tearing it apart.

[Joe 1320]

My first one had the single 4 barrel aluminum intake, that was stock. With the cross ram, 4.56s and slicks they ran nicely. You still had to really drive it like you stole it in order to get the numbers.

[Craig 94 TA GT]

Fred, you're right...the 4.56 gears were an "option" because they, and all the performance mods listed in my post above, were in the "Chevy parts catalog". The mag chose those things to do because they were still considered factory options. The only aftermarket mod was the whole suspension/traction kit, to work with the drag gears. The reason why they had to list "mods" they did was because they borrowed a Z28 from the Baldwin/Motion Group's Ed Simonin. They couldn't get their hands on one anywhere else. Then, they had to bolt up those things on this guy's daily driver Z28 (with 3.70s).

[Joe 1320]

Now I think I also remember My dad telling me that The reson for the 302 CI was the Cubic inch limit in Trans Am racing. I also recall him saying that the Trans Am Seris required all parts used to be factory.... Like the cross ram, Fiberglass hood, Solid lifter cam, and 4.56 gears. I mean those 302's were already wound pretty tight with there 2.02 valves, solid cam, and 8000 RPM redline, and you guys are talking about modding them..... I think headers are all you can do with out tearing it apart.

You are right on the displacement limit and the requirements, except there was more that could be done without opening it up. Stuff like jetting the carb (or pulling it apart and blueprinting it) , recurving the distributer, retiming the cam (OK, that's pulling the timing cover) , but you would be suprised what could be done by individuals who were creative. That was back before all this plug in and play with computers. Everything back then too know how, trial and error with a good dose of prayer that you wouldn't break it before you finally got it dialed in right.

[Squat13]

....Everything back then too know how, trial and error with a good dose of prayer that you wouldn't break it before you finally got it dialed in right.

You know I dont think change all that much