New old F body

[Dave Vince]

509

That 509 is a good combination, a friend of mine got down to 5 teens in the 1/8th and 8.0s in the 1/4 with one of them in a backhalf El Camino with 2 fogger stages at 3000 lbs. He was hitting it with about 5 - 600 shot and it lived. We ran a set of Childs and Albert aluminum rods in our 488 BB and that sucker has 300 runs on it and it is still going strong in Texas. If the new owner can keep it off the wall. He's hit it twice so far. I never used BME rods and they may be fine for limited street use. The Aluminum rods are easier on bearings and crank as the 488 never hurt a bearing. Were as the 632 with Oliver steel rods would beat up bearings. The 360 intake runner will be OK for the motor I will build as we all tend to go too big with our carbs, intakes, etc. and actually hurt performance. I learned that the hard way. The glide has a 1.76 low gear ratio. It does not have the straight cut gears as they were not available when this was built. It was our back up trans for the Beretta.

[fastTa]

I'm surprised how many self proclaimed hardcore gearhead drag racers are convinced that aluminum rods will only last one season at best, and that the only thing they are good for is less reciprocating weight in the rotating assembly.

It sounds like you know what you are doing. I've told people for years that the primary reason for using aluminum rods is to keep the bearings and crank alive, especially on the nitrous and blown cars. The reduced reciprocating weight is just an added benefit.

We were out our HRP in Baytown a few years back before qualifying, and some of the fuel teams were experimenting with using Titanium cranks. Every single one went boom! They quickly figured out from all the data that the Ti cranks were twisting way too much and they were never used again.

Kenny Bernstein said it best when he said all you need to do is look at the plugs and bearings after the run and they will tell you all you need to know. So true!

I'm gonna try to basically copy a friend of mine who has a very similar 509 in his 25.2 Nova. He is running a 3 stage plate fogger. He only uses 250 out of the hole, 400 more a split second after high gear, then the full 850 at about 900-1000 ft. When that car hooks it goes 6.80's. It's got nasty big heads and cam. He put that car into the wall at the big end before(walked away), and last year he drove it in the sand when his chute failed. That's how the big boys play!

[Dave Vince]

Bearings and plugs

Fast TA you sound like you have your act together. Your ride should be an interesting one. When do you estimate you will have your motor built? Is it going into a late model TA? 850 with plate systems, wow thats the most I ever heard with plates. The reason I am going with basic BB heads is cost. The Big Chief style heads are good for at least 100 hp more but the cost is prohibitive. Not just the cost of the head, but all the stuff that goes with it. Jesel rockers, 1600, Titanium valves, 1300, custom pushrods and lifters. We ran one of those setups in the Beretta, which ran 5.07 in the 1/8th, (7.90s in the 1/4), on motor with a glide. The heads were off an NHRA pro stocker that ran in the 1990s. They had all kinds of tricks done to them, ports moved, epoxy filling in port areas, steam cooling system for the exhaust valves. I spent all my play money on a piece of land which I am now selling. When thats sold I will play again.

[fastTa]

I'm going to stuff it in my 97 TA. It's stripped down to the chassis right now. I'm working with a buddy who has been doing chassis' and cages for a while now on getting the cage in. I used to weld for a living, but I haven't done TIG, so he is showing me the ropes.

The relatively short stroke on the 509 makes for incredible throttle response. I will be running a 4500 series dominator and a direct port setup now that I will be able to drill and weld the bungs for the nozzles myself. Bryant crank, BME rods, and Diamond pistons. Haven't picked the cam yet, I need to get the heads flowed and decide on how much bottle I am going to throw at it. I have a set of 18 deg BBC Brodix heads that have been sitting wrapped in plastic inside my house to go on. But the motor will be on hold for a little while. I just sold my house and will be moving to California. So I think by the end of fall I should have most everything done.

[Dave Vince]

Tig

I have a Tig welder, a Miller and it does a great job, but I am not good enough with it. The chassis on our Beretta was made by Don Ness who still builds Pro Stock cars. The welds on that looked like they were poured on. The best welding I have ever seen. One of the main reasons I bought the 68 Camaro was that all the chassis work was done including a 12 point cage. Its mild steel though, but good enough for my purposes. Your future motor sounds great. Those 18 degree heads are like the ones I had on the Beretta, they will flow a bunch so you will have to wind the 509 pretty high on motor. However with the juice you will not have to. Like I said the rockers etc. are pricey for those heads but they do make power. What class are you planning to run with that setup? Anyone on the street will run and hide when they see you coming. Sounds like a good 10.5 car. Most of the guys who are running Nitrous Pro Mod, are running 3 fogger stages. We had one on the Beretta and could only put a 250 shot on it and still had to pedal it. Tried a 400 shot and could not keep it on the track. I was told they actually distort the rear housing when you put too much power to them. We had a 9" with bracing too.

[Joe 1320]

I'm surprised how many self proclaimed hardcore gearhead drag racers are convinced that aluminum rods will only last one season at best, and that the only thing they are good for is less reciprocating weight in the rotating assembly.

Aluminum rods are the cat's you know what. Best motor I ever had used aluminum rods and contrary to what many of those self proclaimed gearheads say, the rods lasted several seasons of hard use. I sold the car and lost track of it so I don't know how long they lasted. It's all in the tuning too.

[FroSSty]

I love how fast an engine revs with aluminum rods compared to steel rods...just plain amazing...

[Dave Vince]

Rods

Top fuel, Pro Stock all ran aluminum rods. Titanium now?? Warren Johnson said he has never had a failure with them. They do change theirs after about 100 1/4 mile passes though. I have seen a lower priced set of aluminum rods where the area above the wrist pin had a crack in it. There was very little meat there as opposed to a Childs and Albert rod.

[fastTa]

Pro Stock and Top Fuel are still running aluminum rods. Ti is very light and very strong for it's weight, but believe it or not, it deflects more so than aluminum. Ti rods would beat up the crank in a PS motor and they would grenade a crank in a TF car as soon as the driver stepped on the gas. Ti is just too hard.

Just about all the NHRA and IHRA PS teams are running either BME, GRP, or Childs & Albert aluminum rods. Most of the TF teams are using BME or Childs and Albert. The last time I talked to some of the crews, the PS teams said they were getting anywhere between 50-80 runs on a rod. The TF teams only get about 6-10 runs on a rod. Even though TF motors are only about 6:1 - 7:1 static compression, at around 60 pounds of boost, the effective cylinder pressures are just silly high and are not nice to the rods.

We have a friend here in town who goes around to the Pro trailers after Saturday qualifying and buys used rods. He makes toilet paper and paper towel dispensers for shops with them.

Those new harder Goodyear tires are only good for 2 runs now on the TF cars.

[Dave Vince]

Rods

Nice to know the rods are still good for something. Must be nice to have a near unlimited budget like some of these NHRA teams seem to have. I try to get a full season out of a set of slicks if I can.

[Z Ya Later]

So, I know this is a semi-unrelated tanget, but would you only want to use aluminum rods on a race motor or would that be practical for street use? What's the average cost difference if streetable?

[Dave Vince]

Street

Fast TA says the BME rods are OK for street use. I have no experience with them. I imagine limited street use would be OK. A good set of Oliver steel rods go for around 1000-1200, which is actualy more than a set of C&A Alum. 700-800. There is a large range in steel rod prices. I have seen sets in the 200 dollar range. Most alum rods are in the 500-800 range.

[fastTa]

The fact that aluminum rods cannot be used in a daily driven street car is a complete myth. This all got started back in the 60's and 70's when aluminum rods were not forged. They were just cut from a piece of thick flat stock. Also the aluminum they used then was no where near the qaulity of the aerospace alloys they are using in aluminum rods nowadays. The misnomer about aluminum rods being a no-no on the street just always stuck around because of that.

Almost all aluminum rods are forged, BME's are the only one's that I know for sure that are die forged. I have talked to lots of people at car shows, meets, tracks, and auctions that have daily driven street cars running aluminum rods without a single problem for 1000's and 1000's of miles.

The only thing you have to keep in mind is that the bearing and wrist pin clearances of a aluminum rod are set up a little more loose than that of a steel rod. Because of this you just need to run a slightly heavier oil and make sure your oiling system can reliably provide 10 PSI per 1000 RPM. The only other thing you have to do differently with running a aluminum rod is you must get the motor fully warmed up before you go out and beat the snot out it. BME recommends getting the oil temp to 125 deg F, or roughly 160-170 deg F coolant temp on a small block motor like ours.

[Z Ya Later]

Hmmm, quite interesting. What weight oil would be needed? I'm running 10w30 Royal Purple at the moment, but I'm guessing that wouldn't be thick enough correct? Also, about the warming up issue, I'm assuming I'd still be able to drive while the motor is warming up, right? Just can't let her "stretch her legs"?

[fastTa]

Hmmm, quite interesting. What weight oil would be needed? I'm running 10w30 Royal Purple at the moment, but I'm guessing that wouldn't be thick enough correct? Also, about the warming up issue, I'm assuming I'd still be able to drive while the motor is warming up, right? Just can't let her "stretch her legs"?

Royal Purple is known to be overated on their viscosity indices. 10W30 Royal Purple actually more realistically shows the same viscosity characteristics as a 5W-25 synthetic. Even alot of pros use Royal Purple to qualify because of this.

Given that I would use 10W-40 if you are going to run Royal Purple. The "warm" viscosity number(40) being the more important of the two. But if it were me I would make the switch to Mobil 1. It's just a better oil.