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[Jeff_in_Atl]

Hi Sean
I understand where you are coming from. I am not 100% positive about the WMD thing but your comment was

...zero nuclear/WMD programs have been discovered/destroyed.

Zero means Zero and finding enough to kill 500,000 people is quite different than zero. You can't just dismiss it because it doesn't kill enough people to qualify for you opinion of what is enough. Also there has been tons of evidence of nuclear/WMD programs. The 9/11 report even states that. There was a nuclear site that had an underground level that was hidden from the inspector the size of several football fields. They showed that on TV. The odd thing was even though it looked well used, there wasn't anything there. Where did it go? That's all.

There were a lot of things that led up to where we are now. One of the biggest things was Turkey not letting us deploy from there. I think if we had, we might could have intercepted some of the several hundred trucks that went into Syria right after the troops started rolling in from the south. The biggest problem was Saddam had way too much time to get rid of the stuff. The military action was delayed way too long by politics. Speaking of delays, the armistice signed in 1991 gave him 15 days to turn over everything. 4380 days later he still had not. This should have never gotten this far. On day 16 the UN should have rolled in taken over. The biggest problem in all of this is the world did not enforce the UN resolutions. If that had happened, we wouldn't have this thread here.

Blah, blah, blah, its our own fault, we brought it on ourselves, blah blah, blah. Micheal moore said......

The only bad foreign policy is when good people observe what they perceive to be a bad or threatening situation and do nothing. This is not the USA, our solutions are far from perfect (no solution is, everything is a compromise). All you can do is try to change it. Rarely is any outcome exactly as it was predicted.

Just as your post is simply a whine about America, without a solution.

Some of your points are legitimate (Saudi and Isreal). Solution?

If think what you are forgetting Red, is that a true role reversal would be nothing like you suggested. If the radical Islamic goverments had the military might (and advantage) that we wield, our way of life would cease to exist.

You are in the same trap as the Isreal/Palestinians are in. You can't change history, you have to move on. You have to change and try new solutions. Was putting the Jews there the best solution in the world? Maybe not. But what the h... are you going to do about it now.

Nobodys perfect Red. The fundementalists biggest problem is they refuse to change. They live in the distant past. They are intolerant. Please don't compare us to them.

Sean

I totally agree. "It's the US's foreign policy that is the cause of 3000 people dieing on 9/11." That is such a twisted mentality.

That is so true about people living in the past and not getting over old grudges. I think the only way to solve this is to teach it to kids in the schools. Over time it will fade. Parents teach kids hatred. They aren't born with it. I think if they can make Iraq work as a free society it will lead to a lot more stable middle east.

A lot of people have complaints and criticisms but have no solutions. I think that is the main reason the democrats have been loosing ground over the last few years.

[Steel2686]

Solid posting, Jeff. I agree on all points.

You hit on one point that has always been my main arguement, and that's how much time Saddam had to get rid of WMD's. There were several spy photos released on MSNBC and Fox News of trucks going towards Syria. Funny how CNN (Clinton News Network) never showed these photos, or at least not on a loop like Fox and MSNBC were doing right before the invasion.

[markd79ta]

1. Bad foreign policy... When CIA gave money/weapons/training to the Osama and mujahadien. We helped defeat the Russians. Then we left the them high and dry afterward. When we helped saddam fight Iran we gave money/weapons/training. Now we conquered Iraq. Current day Iraq is a better breeding ground for terrorist than Afghanistan ever was. What better way to train new terrorist recruits than by sending them to Iraq to get experience fighting the most power army in history. As long as we support Israel you will continue to see terrorism us. As long as our tax dollars go to our friends the Saudis for oil. The Saudis will continue to have money to fund terror. As long as we have any presence in the middle east you will see terrorism against us. Lets reverse the rolls here. And really think about this. If all middle east countries got together and said the U.S has weapons of mass destruction. (which we do) and we are going to preemptively invade. How would you feel if they invaded? Installed there own puppet government like we did in Iraq? Then you and some friends got together to fight off our middle east invaders. Would you consider yourself terrorist or a freedom fighter? I bet the people living in those middle east countries consider you a terrorist. Islam itself is a peaceful religion, not a cult. It's the ones who distort the teaching and tailor it towards hate. Like I said before this is a different kind of war. That will last for generations.

I am pretty familiar with the mid east as well. It was my concentration area when I was going to take the foreign service exam. I adamantly disagree that Islam is a peaceful religion. They are peaceful as long as they get their way. Their history has shown nothing but intolerance and imperialism not to mention the Arab warring caravan ways of old that seem to resurface often. Their own warring upon each other led to the dissolution of their empire. Since then, they have fought to rekindle that empire, because they feel it is their "god" given right to own the land and the people in it...not just their native lands. The land in and around Jerusalem was an imperial conquest as it was for a lot of nations and empires over the last 2,000 years. The only people in the Nation of Islam that live peacefully are those that secularized their society, i.e. Turkey. The Nation of Islam still lives by a 632AD mind-set with little understanding of the modern world.

I do not agree that any of their terrorist attacks are justifiable or even understandable. Granted, they had some pretty bad breaks after WWI and WWII. When Israel was formed, they attacked, they lost, and now they believe their only recourse is to blow up civilians. Why don't they try living with the rest of the world for a change in the territory that they have? Talk about a people who bring hardship upon themselves. They have land and resources something not all nations have, and they won't make the most of what they have. They are so disgruntled about their "status" that they kill and maim others (children not excluded) to get more. They are a bunch of cowards and spoiled brats who act like a bunch of two year old(s) screaming for their favorite toy at the department store when they have plenty of toys at home.

Our support for Israel? You know, I have a pretty big soft spot for a people that had millions brutally exterminated. The Jewish people were persecuted beyond words since the Roman destruction of their temple and their expulsion from their home in 70AD. The winners of WWII saw an obligation to these people and gave them their support. The unrest, in part, is because of that support. However, for those who believe that the abandoning of Israel will stop terrorism are sadly mistaken. The problems in this region will just move to the next level. If they are given an inch they will try to take 11 more. Maybe, someday, the Nation of Islam will unite in the 21st century and leave their caravan ways in the 1st millennia where it belongs. Until then, a large faction of purists will create war and violence based on their "'god' given rights." As long as this faction (in part) is supported by the Nation of Islam and their religion/culture, the violence will not go away. I will not be politically correct with the "Nation of Islam"; they need to grow up!

I do agree that the USA needs to end reliance on Mid East Oil. It is insane that we buy energy from an enemy...absolute lunacy. Our energy policy should require the harnessing of energy and resources that we have domestically...it is a matter of national security. However, the environmentalists and industrialists will never reach a good compromise to this end so we are pretty much screwed.

[DierDesire824]

terrible people

[markd79ta]

terrible people

The people are not terrible; it is a people's culture that makes them do terrible things. The western Christian civilizations did some pretty rotten things over the years as well. However, the western (some now Christian) world learned from our mistakes. They need to do the same.

[Sean 94z28]

Your thoughts..

Agree with most of what you said in that reply. That is why my posts have suggested extreme measures in place of the current strategy.

I for am perfectly willing to pay even more for fuel if it is sourced in America or our real allies. Having ocean sunsets/sunrises without oil platforms means zilch to me. We need to take responsibility for our need for resources. We're not really preserving anything (besides our own resources, just farming out to somebody elses land). Meanwhile, powerful enemies are created. Financial and military enemies.

I will stop here because I just read Mark's post above. What he said......

The question I always have for each USA action is: to what end? I have no real problem helping Isreal. They are solid allies. But, to what end? Can they or any of our other welfare children (Egypt for example) ever become self sufficient?

I support our Iraq effort. To what end. It is starting to look like the Iraq gov't majority (elected BTW) is likely to be cozy with the Iranian Mullahs. Now where do we go.

Does anybody happen to know at what price per barrell, domestic oil becomes profitable. Are we allowed to know this?

Tough problems. The only option we don't have: do nothing.

Sean

[Red20170]

intolerance and imperialism

.
If you look pre WWI WWII. The same can be said about the British and the French. When they were the middle east's enemy. Because of there imperialism. If they want to stay in the dark ages let them. Promoting our ideas on a people that don't want it. In a land where we are viewed as invaders. Is a bad mix period. They know that it would be impossible to defeat us military. So they hit us with terror. Terrorism on civilians is wrong. But for them it is effective means of fighting. Because it strikes a nerve in us.

[Sean 94z28]

Solid posting, Jeff. I agree on all points.

You hit on one point that has always been my main arguement, and that's how much time Saddam had to get rid of WMD's. There were several spy photos released on MSNBC and Fox News of trucks going towards Syria. Funny how CNN (Clinton News Network) never showed these photos, or at least not on a loop like Fox and MSNBC were doing right before the invasion.

I agree with this too. It just means we failed an important part of our mission. Evidence of success is important. Why are we not leaning on Syria? Could we not have destroyed at least one fleeing truck for some Evidence?

I also kinda of part ways with others on the "WMD" thing. I have a clear division between nukes and others. We are kinda late on having control over the "other" category. They exist all over world, in quantities that world kill us all. Nuclear weapons are the only thing we might prevent instead of fix.

Good points all around though.

Sean

[markd79ta]

.
If you look pre WWI WWII. The same can be said about the British and the French. When they were the middle east's enemy. Because of there imperialism. If they want to stay in the dark ages let them. Promoting our ideas on a people that don't want it. In a land where we are viewed as invaders. Is a bad mix period. They know that it would be impossible to defeat us military. So they hit us with terror. Terrorism on civilians is wrong. But for them it is effective means of fighting. Because it strikes a nerve in us.

There is no doubt that the French and British caused a lot of problems in the mid east. The Versailles treaty was a horrible document. Post WWI relations in the mid east and the breaking of promises was a slap in the face. Post WWI relations in Germany was also a slap in the face. WWII was certainly caused by a lot of childish actions.

However, look at the model post WWII. Germany and Japan were completely destroyed, but they were rebuilt and they are autonomous global powers now. Both countries had troops, government advisors, and so on. However, that went away with time. The world evolved; the Nation of Islam hasn't. The same model applies in Iraq. The fanatics, that make up the terror cells know this. They know full well that Iraq will be rebuilt, and a unique government will take shape (certainly not a puppet government as you suggest.) However, they can not let that happen in order to save their cause. The terror cells are more afraid of success in Iraq then occupation. If Iraq succeeds, their cause is lost. The cause isn't all about "invaders". It is far more encompassing of how they see themselves in the world. Again, they need to move on into the world of today. They need to live by today's rules. They need to get along. If they would just lay down their guns, get a clue, they could develop a huge financial center in that region. It is totally up to them, but they can't have it their way. Culture, yes; but they are not going to rule the roost. Japan succeeded, took the aid, built a thriving financial center and did it with minimal natural resources; just think what the mid east could do if they let go of their dinosaur ways.

[Red20170]

There is no doubt that the French and British caused a lot of problems in the mid east. The Versailles treaty was a horrible document. Post WWI relations in the mid east and the breaking of promises was a slap in the face. Post WWI relations in Germany was also a slap in the face. WWII was certainly caused by a lot of childish actions.

However, look at the model post WWII. Germany and Japan were completely destroyed, but they were rebuilt and they are autonomous global powers now. Both countries had troops, government advisors, and so on. However, that went away with time. The world evolved; the Nation of Islam hasn't. The same model applies in Iraq. The fanatics, that make up the terror cells know this. They know full well that Iraq will be rebuilt, and a unique government will take shape (certainly not a puppet government as you suggest.) However, they can not let that happen in order to save their cause. The cause isn't all about "invaders". It is far more encompassing of how they see themselves in the world. Again, they need to move on into the world of today. They need to live by today's rules. They need to get along. If they would just lay down their guns, get a clue, they could develop a huge financial center in that region. It is totally up to them, but they can't have it their way. Culture, yes; but they are not going to rule the roost. Japan succeeded, took the aid, built a thriving financial center and did it with minimal natural resources; just think what the mid east could do if they let go of their dinosaur ways

Agreed.... You make a very valid point.

[markd79ta]

Agreed.... You make a very valid point.

It is a pretty difficult situation to be sure. It is also very difficult for the USA to convey a better autonomous government message to the people in the mid east. Cold War Foreign Policy did little to enhance our image. A lot of games were played not only in the mid east, but in other hot spots around the world that eroded the US image along with faith in these policies. I am sure the people of Iraq are sceptical of the new Iraqi government in its infancy...they don't know what to expect in the long term. However, these people have nothing but hope in a better tomorrow, and they are not the ones setting off bombs. It is those that don't want to see global policy succeed and nullify their cause. It is all heartbreaking to watch while seeing the soldiers return home in a box along with innocents killed on their way to work. Nobody wants to see this, and few want to understand why.

[Steel2686]

The terror cells are more afraid of success in Iraq then occupation. If Iraq succeeds, their cause is lost. The cause isn't all about "invaders". It is far more encompassing of how they see themselves in the world. Again, they need to move on into the world of today. They need to live by today's rules. They need to get along. If they would just lay down their guns, get a clue, they could develop a huge financial center in that region. It is totally up to them, but they can't have it their way. Culture, yes; but they are not going to rule the roost. Japan succeeded, took the aid, built a thriving financial center and did it with minimal natural resources; just think what the mid east could do if they let go of their dinosaur ways.

Great point, Mark. You've had some solid ones, but this truly defines what is going on in Iraq TODAY. For whatever reason, the Middle East and most of Europe paint us as the problem in Iraq. A dictator who killed thousands just because of their beliefs wasn't a problem? A Government that kept aid from their own people wasn't a problem? Now, these insurgents who are stopping aid convoys from reaching their destinations in Iraq aren't the problem? The same ones are killing innocent foreign workers to "get their point across", and we're the problem?

The people who think we should just pull out of there have no idea what kind of carnage would ensue if that were the case. They are trying to rebuild an entire Government over there, which is something very new to the culture itself. It's not going to happen overnight. It might not even happen for another five to ten years, at least on a successful level. The point is, the wheels are in motion. If the insurgents were to stop the ideoligy that killing innocents will change everything, they would realize the new Government will benefit them as well.

[Joe 1320]

I have to say that I am impressed with the way that an intelligent debate on this forum can go on at great length without it turning ugly. There is really something to be said for the quality of the members and their ability to be respectful of another's views. I applaud you.

[Steel2686]

Agreed, Joe. I've posted about this before, but I'll do it again...

I've been a part of several forums in the past for various hobbies of mine. I've probably read in the tens of thousands of threads. This is the ONLY forum that acts not only civilized, but as a family. It can't be said enough... This is the greatest place on the net.