Mustang -vs- Camaro

[Injuneer]

I'm glad some maturity, and reality is creeping into this thread...

The 03 Cobra is an excellent car, and will outrun any F-Body ever delivered from the factory, plain and simple. Why is that so hard to accept? If you think putting an S/C on a car at the factory is "rice", I guess that would make the V6 Turbo Buicks - capable of running in the 7's in NHRA "super stock" form, pure rice. If that's rice.... gimmee some.

There is hope from the GM camp... the auto rags are claiming the BASE C6 will have 425HP from the factory, with the updated Z06 arriving later at closer to 500HP.

[tabahr]

definition of Rice

http://riceboypage.com/

Check it out, it is a good laugh.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by Injuneer
I'm glad some maturity, and reality is creeping into this thread...

The 03 Cobra is an excellent car, and will outrun any F-Body ever delivered from the factory, plain and simple....

Do the GMMG cars (Berger SS, Blackbird, ZL1) count as "from the factory"?

[Joe K. 99 Zeee!!]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6
Do the GMMG cars (Berger SS, Blackbird, ZL1) count as "from the factory"?

I think those are more in line with the Saleen Mustang.

Those are pretty rare....Can you even order those cars from a dealer? Though GMMG probably has a contract with GM, those cars are certainly not modified by a GM run facility.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by Joe K. 96 Zeee!!
I think those are more in line with the Saleen Mustang.........

Just a little side note about that... The Saleen S281 is one of the cars on my "most overrated and hated" list. I drove the supercharged S281 last summer. I have never ridden in a more hyped up - but disappointing car in my life. Not as fast as my WS6 -- and it costs as much as a Corvette. The S281 is nothing but nice rims and body kit on a grossly overpriced car.

[markd79ta]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6
Do the GMMG cars (Berger SS, Blackbird, ZL1) count as "from the factory"?

The ZL1s were definitely factory cars although there were less then 100 produced...still factory...not aftermarket speed shop special additions like the Saleen. The numbers on those are all over the board from 10s with slicks to 13s with amateur drivers who couldn't handle it. The '03 Cobra will not touch it in the 1/4 given the driver in the ZL1 knows what he is doing. Actually, with the right driver, the '03 Cobra would be hard pressed to run a 1/4 with the '68 Firebird 400 which have run high 12s in stock form at many of the Pontiac shootouts so I doubt that is the fastest of all time, but certainly it will take our 4th gens in the 1/4. It is a supercharged DOHC V8, of course it is going to be fast, but beyond that? I don't think anybody is discrediting the new Cobra's ability to go fast in the 1/4...it is the rest of the package. I would like to see a road test with it in comparison to a 1LE Firehawk.

The '03 Cobra, though, is a nice ride for somebody who doesn't mind driving a Mustang, and has their health insurance paid up. Spend a little time on the Safety forum, and you will decide REALLY fast the F.O.R.D. Mustangs are not the car to buy. http:\\www.safetyforum.com/fordmustang/ I will never let any family member or friend drive one of these until F.O.R.D. engineers redesign that car so the fuel tank is protected. It is a PITA to drop by my fuel tank in the '97 to change the fuel pump, but this is a small price to pay so that I don't have a barbecue out on the boulevard with my *** as the entree.

Additionally, the last time I was at an autocross event, I talked several minutes to a F.O.R.D. Mustang guy while we were paired referring a turn on the course. He even freely admitted that the Mustang suspension was lack-luster at best, and was finger-in-mouth gaging contemplating moving to a Camaro to be competitive in the F-Stock class. the Cobra incorporates the IRS rear suspension, but the front is horrible as it always has been. I guess, it is a good car, if one lives between the christmas tree and the trap, but for those that want to take it on the course or rally with it, I wouldn't touch them if I was paid to do so. Here is a great site that breaks down the late Mustang suspension. http:\\miracerros.com/mustang/t_suspension.htm. After reading this, compare the f-body to the Mustang. There is a lot more to a car then just going fast in a straight line...at least IMHO.


I think F.O.R.D. will be much better off focusing on the new GT spin-off of the GT40; and going back to the drawing board on the Mustang. If they fix these problems in the new release, then I will back off, but until then... From its inception to date, the Mustang has just been an all around...you can fill in the blanks. I like my T/As and my Vetts a alot, but that is not the reason for disliking the Mustang...it has some REALLY big problems. If Chrysler put out a new Cuda with their new semi-hemi V8, I would buy it in a heartbeat if it was put together correctly, and GM didn't reintroduce the Trans Am.

[markd79ta]

Here are the specs on the Cobra front suspension as listed on the F.O.R.D. website. If you read the link in my previous post regarding the McPherson strut system vs. the uneven a-arm wishbone design of the f-body, you will definitely see why you don't want the Cobra. I don't know to what extent they corrected this system on the new ones, but it will never compare to a stock and especially modified f-body without a whole lot of welding and fabrication of a new system. I suppose the Bilstein's will help to some extent. Additionally, the Cobra has the IRS which really helps, but could you imagine how bad the bind of the so-so 4-link on the GT is on anything but a drag strip. Most of the "good" Mustang shops like the one here in Denver knows all two well these shortcomings, and they have several suspension packages that fix these problems. The one that I know here in Denver welds the brackets for a panhard rod in place of the upper control arms, and changes the rear into a 3link, and drops the front saddle for a tubular design and relocation unit and dials it is as best as they can. However, you are still dealing with a McPherson strut system vs. having that upper control arm...not too good on a sports car...maybe on my fiancee's Concorde

Front: Modified MacPherson strut system with gas-charged Bilstein™ monotube dampeners and separate 600 lb/in (500 lb/in on convertible) spring on lower arm, 29mm tubular stabilizer bar

Rear: Multi-link independent system, cast iron upper control arm, aluminum lower control arm, fixed toe-control tie rod, aluminum spindle, gas-charged Bilstein™ monotube shock absorber, 600 lb/in (470 lb/in on convertible) coil spring, 26mm tubular stabilizer bar

[Jeff_in_Atl]

I know this is going to get a lot of response but the last article I saw on the 02 SS vs 02 Cobra had the SS pulling more Gs but the Cobra beat it through the slalom by over 5 miles per hour.

[markd79ta]

Originally posted by Jeff 95 Z28
I know this is going to get a lot of response but the last article I saw on the 02 SS vs 02 Cobra had the SS pulling more Gs but the Cobra beat it through the slalom by over 5 miles per hour.

Which article? From what source? I read an article where they were comparing a Z06 to an M3 where the Z06 spanked the heck out of it, but still they gave the acolades to the M3 that it was a superior performer. In 1998, there was an article comparing the Cobra to the WS6 where the WS6 beat it in every category, but the article basically said the WS6 was dog poop, and the Cobra was the future of sports cars. If that is the future...count me out...I will take up knitting or something.

Depending on the driver, a lot of things can happen. 'but the basic design of the Cobra is inferior, and not one I would ever want. Who knows how the test was done, or what there desired outcome was.

[markd79ta]

Originally posted by Jeff 95 Z28
I know this is going to get a lot of response but the last article I saw on the 02 SS vs 02 Cobra had the SS pulling more Gs but the Cobra beat it through the slalom by over 5 miles per hour.

Oh, additionally, which suspension did the SS have in it. There were three options for this car...the Bilstein, 1LE, and the V8 stock. If memory serves, the 1LE Firehawk had the best setup, but I could be wrong. Additionally, all three packages were fairly moderate to what the suspension can actually do. I wonder which they used for the test.

[Jeff_in_Atl]

think it was Car Craft which I used to call Chevy Craft because they did so much on the Chevy and seamed bias to it.

Well I think the stock V8 is not available in the SS. and the 1le is the police package so I doubt it had that. I didn't think there was a suspension option on the SS but I don't know F-bodies very well.

Articles are opinions. A lot depends on the drivers as you say. They did use the G meter thing I think G-Tech? I don't remember. The basic design of the Cobra goes back to 1979. It is way outdated.

I hate the McPherison strut front suspension. The F-Body is much better. There are things that can be done to make them better but at that point, they are not stock. But in 1984-1986 Ford used the Lincoln Mark 7 front suspension on the SVO. I took that off of an SVO and put it on a GT and it fixed the screwed up tire wear. It had longer control arms which stopped the feathering and the off camber tire when the wheel is turned. It was pretty much on par with my Z28. OK I know that is TMI.

However the IRS in the Cobra is better than the F-Body for handling. It keeps the full contact patch of the tire on the ground better than the live axle. Put both cars on a perfectly flat track and you won't see a difference. Put them on a crappy road with pot holes and bumps and you will see a big difference.

Another thing to keep in mind was something stated in another post a while back. The horse power numbers varry greatly from the factory. You might find a new Cobra that beats a new SS. You also might find a new SS that whoops up on a new Cobra.

I can say this about the Cobra. Since they started the SVT program in 1993, all SVT engines were assembled by specialist who had to put their name on the engine. They wer not built on the regular production line like I believe the F-bodies were.

Look, bottom line is they are both good cars. Why does one have to be better. Like I said a few posts ago, at least they are American made or I should say American designed since mine was made in Canada. Well I guess American can be North American.

[Joe K. 99 Zeee!!]

I'd take that safety forum news with a grain of salt....Here's what they had to say about the F-bodies:

Designed To Kill

Combining the highest risk population with the highest risk cars is a formula for death. Given the combination, it is little wonder that GM's F-Cars are the most efficient killers on America's roads, yet it is unlikely that their hazardous designs will be removed from the marketplace or that the roadway carnage will be reduced unless and until the marketplace or federal regulators force auto-makers to take such steps.

[markd79ta]

Originally posted by Jeff 95 Z28
Well I think the stock V8 is not available in the SS. and the 1le is the police package so I doubt it had that. I didn't think there was a suspension option on the SS but I don't know F-bodies very well.

Here are the suspension packages. I was wrong. It is the SLP Bilstein package that is the best.

1LE (not available with CC1 removable roof panels) adds/changes:
* Z-rated tires
* front shocks: Koni double adjustable
* front springs: 360 lb/in (63 N/mm)
* front sway bar: 32mm (tube)
* stiffer front upper and lower control arm bushings
* rear shocks: Koni double adjustable
* rear springs: 130-180 lb/in (23-32 N/mm)
* rear sway bar: 19mm
* stiffer rear lower control arm bushings
* stiffer panhard bar bushings
* stiffer transmission mount (manual only)

SS adds/changes:

* 17x9 cast aluminum painted wheels
* 275/40ZR-17 Goodyear F1 tires
* front shocks: deCarbon 46mm
* front springs: 360 lb/in (63 N/mm)
* front sway bar: 32mm (tube)
* rear shocks: deCarbon 36mm
* rear springs: 130-180 lb/in (23-32 N/mm)
* rear sway bar: 19mm

SLP Y2Y Bilstein option (not available on the SS convertible) adds/changes:

* front shocks: Bilstein B46-2071 46mm (with special SLP valving)
* front springs: Eibach 300-450 lb/in (53-79 N/mm)
* rear shocks: Bilstein B46-1914 46mm
* rear springs: Eibach 115-185 lb/in (20-32 N/mm)
* stiffer rear lower control arm bushings

[markd79ta]

Originally posted by Joe K. 96 Zeee!!
I'd take that safety forum news with a grain of salt....Here's what they had to say about the F-bodies:

This was one site of many lawsuits and actions taken against F.O.R.D. There are many sources of information. The gas tank problem has been ongoing since I was a kid back in the 70s. F.O.R.D. has been prompted to change the design, but still hasn't. They have ducked and shirked their responsibility just as they are now doing with the Crown Vic. It is still happening, and maybe the new gen. coming out will be different.

Anyhow, I have been rear-ended twice once in my '90 and once in my '97 f-bodies. Who knows what would have happened. But GM moved and set their gas tank in the safest place possible and F.O.R.D. didn't....bottom line.

The 4th gen was declared as the safest vehicle in its class in '93, but I am not sure how long it stayed there. It will take a really good impact. Its crash rating hovers around these numbers http://www.edmunds.com/used/2000/Pon...av..8.Pontiac* There will be many philosophical articles against sports cars especially those like the Vette. If I am going way too fast, and I turn myself into a greasy spot somewhere, that is my responsibility. If somebody rear-ends me, my doors jam, and my child sitting in the back is burned alive, I would go postal on the manufacturer, therefore, I won't drive the Mustang until that is fixed...

[TODD 2000 V6 CAMARO]

I just thought I would clear up my statement that has been refereced so much above. I used the term "rice" for lack of a better term. I just want to see Ford release a Mustang with a NATURALLY ASPIRATED engine that can hang with the LS1 and LS6 before I hear the ford guys brag. Yes, it is stock with the blower. Yes, it comes with that much HP. But, what do most manufacturers do when they want to up the HP of a model without spending too much money on say, making the engine it'self better? They put a supercharger on it...i.e. Ford Focus SVT, the soon to come supercharged Impala SS, Grand Prix GTP...etc. I just think it is far too often a cop out by manufacturers to get more horspower out of a weak engine. There are, of course, exceptions, but it's hard to deny that this is a common practice. I mean, aren't most of the great true muscle cars from years past all from the factory with big, powerful, naturally aspirated engines? That's all I meant. I didn't mean to insinuate that any of you guys out there with blowers on your cars are rice, not at all. I just think that Ford kinda "cheated," so to speak, to catch up with the Vette. That's all.