Good choices for daily driver...

[Cacophony]

I'll back you up here Jay. My inlaws have a new Regal and while it is nice and I have spent hours driving it the quality is still sub par. I recently drove a new BMW 3 series 2000 miles to Miami and back and man, is it ever night and day. Even my friends new Hyundai Sonata feels superior when it comes to fit finish and materials.

My best friend has a 98 BMW 323 5-speed(75k miles) which ran him 13 grand, the prices these things go for is kinda crazy to me. I have a 95 Bonneville as a DD and it ran me 2.5g(101k miles). We've duked it out down the road a few times and the Bonne even with the 600+ lb difference will still out-muscle the BMW. The Bonne has much less road noise, and it's roomier and smoother. The BMW takes it in handling and gas mileage, other then that, how are GM Sedans so bad, especially for the $.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

My best friend has a 98 BMW 323 5-speed(75k miles) which ran him 13 grand, the prices these things go for is kinda crazy to me. I have a 95 Bonneville as a DD and it ran me 2.5g(101k miles). We've duked it out down the road a few times and the Bonne even with the 600+ lb difference will still out-muscle the BMW. The Bonne has much less road noise, and it's roomier and smoother. The BMW takes it in handling and gas mileage, other then that, how are GM Sedans so bad, especially for the $.

The prices those things go for is part of the problem... depreciation is not a good thing for a car owner. I've given examples of the numbers in other threads... but your friend will probably sell that BMW 2 or 3 years from now for $8-10K, which means the total amount he paid for it was $3,000. I just bought a 2001 Cavalier a year ago with 26,000 miles on it for $6,000... I sold it two weeks ago with 41,000 miles on it for $3,000. When I think about the decision to buy the Cavalier, I want to kick myself... I paid $3,000 for one year of ownership with the Cavalier, when I probably could have bought a BMW that would have cost me $3,000 for three years of ownership.

As for the Bonneville being roomier than the 323 -- duh. The Bonneville is a big car, and as far as size goes, should be compared more to a 5 series or 7 series. The 3 series is the size of the G6.

Smoother? If so, it's probably because the BMW is a 4 cylinder and the Bonneville is a 6 cylinder. Drive a BMW 330, or 545 and then drive a Bonneville. LOL... wow, that's such an easy decision for me it's almost comical.

Also since we're talking about a 10 and 7 year old car here... we introduce a lot of other variables. How well maintained is it? Did the previous owner(s) take care of it? etc, etc...

Drive these cars off a lot - brand new.

And as for the Bonneville being faster in a straight line... yay... that doesn't at all mean it's a better car.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

I'll back you up here Jay. My inlaws have a new Regal and while it is nice and I have spent hours driving it the quality is still sub par. I recently drove a new BMW 3 series 2000 miles to Miami and back and man, is it ever night and day. Even my friends new Hyundai Sonata feels superior when it comes to fit finish and materials.

LOL, I'm not gonna touch the Hyundai comment

Thanks for the back, though.

The difference is really in the details. The smoothness of the engine, the communication of the chassis, the feel of the steering, the touch of the buttons on the dashboard, the firmness and supportiveness of the seat, the appearance of the interior, the fit and finish, the attention to detail in the fitment of the panels...

I don't think the Grand Prix is a bad looking car, I think it's rather attractive. It's not that the car won't get you from point A to point B, and it's not that it's a bad car. It will probably also turn out to be very reliable. But seriously - I really invite any of you who are so loyal to GM products to take this challenge with an open mind. Go to a dealer's lot this week... drive a Grand Prix GTP. Then go to an Infiniti dealer and drive a G35. Then go to an Audi dealer and drive an A4, and do the same at BMW for a 330. You'll notice the GP can hold its own in the speed category - no question... but pay attention to other things. Pay attention to the feel of the steering, the way the chassis communicates the road, the smoothness of the acceleration, the appearance and feel of the interior, and the way the interior panels line up with each other.

There is a difference.

If GM took what they did with the C6 Z06 and did it to the rest of their lineup, their problems would be over. It's just that the rest of their product lineup is full of relatively blandly styled, "me too", above average, just good enough cars.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Any way... the thread has gotten a little off track, so I'm getting off my soap box.

Mark, in the $10,000 range, there are some Nissan Altimas that might do the trick... but I wish you best of luck with your decision... the Regal sounds like it will do what you're asking of it. I didn't intend on high-jacking your thread, but I knew my suggestions would stir up controversy. Anyway, good luck.

[Trans Am]

looks like Jay is completely on the sunrise jap side 'former ride' says a lot.. j/k
I d reccomend an audi a6 , i ve got one and its great, i ve got nothing to say against it , good gas mileage , great ride and handling , great on the motorway, great interior even when it comes to bells and whistles..not sure how much they go for over there

[scotts94_z28]

looks like Jay is completely on the sunrise jap side 'former ride' says a lot.. j/k
I d reccomend an audi a6 , i ve got one and its great, i ve got nothing to say against it , good gas mileage , great ride and handling , great on the motorway, great interior even when it comes to bells and whistles..not sure how much they go for over there

audi's for a daily driver are deffinitly a great way to go or the 3 series bmw's

[jims69camaro]

Are GM's sedans improved over the 80s? Monumentally, yes.

Are they on par with their imported competition? ... definitely not. I come from a GM family, and have been exposed to all sorts of GM products.

The one who needs to spend some time behind the wheel here is you, my friend. Take a drive in an Infiniti G35, a BMW 3 series, Audi A4, Acura TL... then get behind the wheel of a Grand Prix. It will become painfully obvious to you after that.

Oh... and welcome to the board.

my impressions and therefore my opinions. obviously they don't match yours. i am not at all impressed with the imports and i do have wheel time with them. i worked in a toyota shop selling them, after all.

Infiniti G35: huge wad of plastic covered by sheet metal.
BMW 3 series: money pit. cannot take it for service without it costing you $100 each time. things do go wrong with them as reported by consumer reports and it is costly when they do. not a wise choice at all by any means, unless you are a rich yuppy who doesn't mind your status symbol nickle-and-diming you to death.
Audi A4: the one fine example of your list. other than being overpriced, it's a solid vehicle and a nice one for enthusiasts who like a little punch in their DD.
Acura TL: overpriced honda. might as well stick with an accord, which aren't what they're hyped up to be, either.

i did not arrive at my opinions without having an open mind. slamming domestics just because they are domestics is "so '80s" and something that needs to stop if people are going to give the big US 3 an opportunity to prove what they're made of. sure, the big JAP 3 filled a void in the '80s. it's over.

thanks for the welcome.

[jims69camaro]

I didn't intend on high-jacking your thread, but I knew my suggestions would stir up controversy. Anyway, good luck.

i don't think we high-jacked his thread. i think it's important to get both sides of a story. this is a lot more of a discussion than controversial. i am not trying to change anyone's mind - just trying to provide facts from the other side, which are usually missing in any discussion about the superiority of foreign cars.

[Mark B]

I owned a 97 Audi A4.(Add that to my long list of previously owned cars) I loved it. It was so smooth & refined. However, as someone else already mentioned, you have to look at the cost. Even though these german & japanese cars are better... They are also more expensive for a used GM car with everything that I want... I will probably spend 9-10K. To get a German or Jap car with the same miles & options, I am probably going to have to spend 50% more.

You get what you pay for.

[Steel2686]

i don't think we high-jacked his thread. i think it's important to get both sides of a story. this is a lot more of a discussion than controversial. i am not trying to change anyone's mind - just trying to provide facts from the other side, which are usually missing in any discussion about the superiority of foreign cars.

Don't get me wrong, Jim. I wasn't sticking up for foreign cars. Just the opposite. I merely stated a fact. Foreign sedans are superior in feel. However, I would by, and have bought, nothing but American cars since I was old enough to drive. The comical thing about bringing Audi, BMW, and Infiniti into this conversation is the initial cost of these vehicles compared to say, the Regal. If we are going to compare a BMW 330 to an American car, how about we make it fair? The CTS maybe?

No one is arguing the quality of the German and Japanese cars... Let's just compare apples to apples. Plus, as one other person noted, service on any foreign car, Japanese or European, is going to be far more than an American car. German cars are not nearly as reliable as their price tag would indicate.

A great comparison against the BMW 3 series would be the Saab 9-5. I almost bought one last year. What an incredibly well put together car. A great driver's car as well. Two things with this... One, you're getting a fair competition against the like-priced BMW, Audi, etc. Two, Saab is owned by GM. This is probably the fairest comparison you'll make.

[FroSSty]

This may fall under "servicing" but its another thing to consider. It will almost always take double the time to repair an import compared to a domestic. ie. We can get GM parts delivered twice per day. We can get Ford and Chrysler parts once per day. We can get VW, Audi, KIA, well pretty much any import part once a week, maybe. Because domsestic car companies stock so many more parts than imports. Usually when we order domestic parts, they have them right there in there warehouse. So we get them either the same day or the very next day. When we order Imported parts, they have to order them from there warehouse which is usually a couple days away from them. Then the warehouse doesnt stock everything so they may have to order it from another warehouse that could be a couple days away from them. And of course the part(s) have to stop at every point or the "chain" to get back to us. ie. We had a 97 VW Jetta come in, a fairly popular VW model, which we ordered parts for a week before it was scheduled. A week after it came in we got some of the parts. By the following week we received the rest of the parts and finished the job. All in all we had it about a month. If that was a Bonneville it would have been done in a week. Wek and a half for benefit of the doubt. It seems like this happens all the time. Sorry so long. BTW, I hate typing.

[markd79ta]

i can't agreee with this assumption. when was the last time you were behind the wheel of a GM sedan? back in the '80s?
which ones? again, recent experience or an '80s car?
this sounds like the GM sedans i know.
in what ways? seriously, the old story of GM not having superior cars is a carry-over from the '80s. get some wheel time in GM's cars, you'd be hard pressed to find one that would disappoint.

my suggestion, should the funds be available, is to rent some of the 2000-04 GM sedans in order to become acquianted with them. unless you have friends/family with cars like these, this is about the only way to spend some quality time behind the wheel. while i can be called a fanatic with regard to domestic product, i actually have reason to be proud of our american cars. gone is the old assumption that they are all oversized, gas-guzzling, soot producing behemoths. there are many cars to choose from in the 10k range with all of the bells and whistles you can think of. if you would even take a look at ferds and dodge/chrysler, you might even find a candidate or two among them. i am not that familiar with their models, but i know their engineers have also been working hard to fill the void created by sloppy craftsmanship/shoddy creations of the '80s cars. good luck in your search.

p.s. this is by no means a flame.

I can't say I think too much of GM's new sedans. I have driven GM for 17 years, and I am done. I absolutely loathe my 2000 SSEI. I can't think of one good thing to say about it. Well, I guess it looked nice until I started driving it. Owning that car has been a miserable experience. It just sits in my driveway until I can find some poor fellow to take it off my hands. Hopefully, I can work a trade next spring. Although, it isn't worth anything so I am probably stuck with that pile of junk until I pay it down and haul it off to the junk yard.

[Christopherrr]

BMW is a 4 cylinder and the Bonneville is a 6 cylinder.

Actually...323s are 170 hp I6s. Not picking a fight...I'd take the Bavarian any day. 318s are the 4 bangers...and were killed off in 97.

GM sedans aren't bad cars...for the money, they really can't be beat. 3.8s are strong and workhorses...if I had to just pick a DD to get me from point A to B...it'll be a Grand Prix GT.

[Steel2686]

GM sedans aren't bad cars...for the money, they really can't be beat. 3.8s are strong and workhorses...if I had to just pick a DD to get me from point A to B...it'll be a Grand Prix GT.

Exactly. I'm not touting the average GM sedan against a BMW. I was simply saying for the money, GM sedans are the best choice. I would put a like-priced GM sedan up against a BMW anyday.

[jims69camaro]

You get what you pay for.

more true these days than any other time in history.

my impression of the imports, though, is that they start off slightly bloated. then, owner's opinions keep the resale on the bloated side. back in the '90s, i watched the top-of-the-line cadillac eldorados drop 40% in depreciation in the first year. there was no need to buy a new cadillac - just wait a year and get it for half price. this is attributed to the market which is flooded with foreign vehicles that keep their resale value, and the wide-spread misinformation that GM builds garbage.

so, while it is slightly skewed, you can still get what you pay for. sometimes you can even get a bargain.