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thinking about trying the 4.10 ratio

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  • #46
    You can't really go by "rules of thumb" like 3.73's for automatics and 4.10's for M6's..... you need to spend the time to estimate the ultimate performance of the vehicle, particularly trap speed. Then you need to put a tire under it that will allow it to reach its potential.

    You need to wrestle with gear ratios, engine redline, tire diameters, tire growth, and convertor slip. I did a fairly decent Excel spreadsheet that reflected all of these, specific to my tires, my convertor, etc. On a chassis dyno pull, we plotted MPH vs. engine RPM and I compared theoretical RPM from the MPH to actual RPM, to get the convertor slip at each engine load. Then I estimated tire growth from the fact that until I moved the rear axle back a little, the tires would hit the front edge of the wheel opening at approx 120MPH trap speeds, closing up the 1/2" gap that normally existed. All this was cranked into the spreadsheet.

    Everything tells me that with the 4.10's, I can just barely make it to the finish line, in the 1:1 3rd gear of the TH400, with the engine at the 7,000rpm shutoff point for the nitrous. But there are still a lot of "guesses" in all this, and if I am off by a little, the penalty will be the need to shift the Gear Vendor into O/D at the end of the track. But I've already done enough experimenting to know that it isn't going to hurt me as much to shift into O/D as it would have cost me to cross the line with 3.73's and be 10% below the "redline".
    Fred

    381ci all-forged stroker - 10.8:1 - CNC LT4 heads/intake - CC solid roller - MoTeC engine management - 8 LS1 coils - 58mm TB - 78# injectors - 300-shot dry nitrous - TH400 - Gear Vendor O/D - Strange 12-bolt - 4.11's - AS&M headers - duals - Corbeau seat - AutoMeter gauges - roll bar - Spohn suspension - QA1 shocks - a few other odds 'n ends. 800HP/800lb-ft at the flywheel, on a 300-shot. 11.5 @ 117MPH straight motor

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    • #47
      I have never been on a chassis dyno. Is it typical to get a graph of RPM vs. MPH on a normal chassis dyno? There is a dyno shop that just opened up down the road and I was thinking of going for a few pulls in the spring. That info would be invaluable when choosing my ratio.
      96 WS6 Formula: Ram Air, 383 Stroker, Ported LT4 Heads and Manifold, 1.6 Crane Rollers, 58MM T.B., AS&M Headers, Borla Exhaust, Meziere Elec. H2O Pump, Canton Deep Sump Oil Pan, 100 HP OF TNT N2O!! , T56 Conversion w/ Pro 5.0 shifter, SPEC Stage 3 Clutch, Hotchkiss Subframe Conn., Lakewood Adj. Panhard Bar, Spohn Adj. LCA's, BMR Adj. T.A., Custom 12 bolt w/ 3:73's, Moser Axles, Eaton Posi, Moser Girdle
      11.6 @ 123mph (1.6 60' - getting there )

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      • #48
        Don't forget about 3.90's. Most 3.90 gear manufactures also straight cut a 3.90 ring and pinion. This makes the gears noisier but the worthwhile benefit is that it takes less horsepower to turn a staight cut gear as opposed to a helically cut gear. Just something to consider.

        Fred I am just curious, how close was your spreadsheet to your dyno data. I am doing the "wrestling" right now as well.

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        • #49
          When you "dyno" they will record MPH from the drum, RPM from your engine. They normally don't plot it, but its in the computer and they can plot it for you if you want it. I generally diddle around with the dyno computer between pulls, so it was just a matter of doing the plot that included MPH, RPM and HP. I'll have to see if I can find a copy of it that I can put up on the 'net.

          Second Street is also a little anal about doing a normal RPM vs. Torque & HP plot for a high stall automatic. Their point is that the stall/torque multiplication will make the torque result meaningless with reference to true engine flywheel torque.
          Fred

          381ci all-forged stroker - 10.8:1 - CNC LT4 heads/intake - CC solid roller - MoTeC engine management - 8 LS1 coils - 58mm TB - 78# injectors - 300-shot dry nitrous - TH400 - Gear Vendor O/D - Strange 12-bolt - 4.11's - AS&M headers - duals - Corbeau seat - AutoMeter gauges - roll bar - Spohn suspension - QA1 shocks - a few other odds 'n ends. 800HP/800lb-ft at the flywheel, on a 300-shot. 11.5 @ 117MPH straight motor

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          • #50
            My solid roller 383 is going together right now. I am going to be making quite a bit more power than my previous set up especially with the direct port n2o. I currently have a 9" rear with 4.11's and will be running a 28x10.5 MT drag. I will also be turning about 7 grand. According to the below calcluator I should not run out of gear until approx 147 mph:

            I factored in 1 inch of overall tire growth (29"), and a 1:1 tranny ratio (third in my th400).

            http://murray.faithweb.com/formulas.htm#find_mph

            Do you think this is accurate Fred?

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            • #51
              i majored in math

              this thread has been quite entertaining. not gonna name names, but someone here could benefit from a refresher on the concept of the differential, as in calculus. There, you will discover the difference between instantaneous and average.

              Everybody else seems to agree with what I was taught.
              Living in the pools, They soon forget about the sea...— Rush, "Natural Science" (1980)

              Formerly "gauSSian" from my f-body days.

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              • #52
                Took calculus in high school, 104 final grade, currently studying orbital angular momentum of photons for a thesis, calculus was "2+2" in comparison, if you know what I mean.

                Gaussian huh, as opposed to "normal distribution" I suppose.

                Let's keep the focus on the orginal thread subject.

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                • #53
                  I took "math 102" in college. .....I got an A.
                  96 WS6 Formula: Ram Air, 383 Stroker, Ported LT4 Heads and Manifold, 1.6 Crane Rollers, 58MM T.B., AS&M Headers, Borla Exhaust, Meziere Elec. H2O Pump, Canton Deep Sump Oil Pan, 100 HP OF TNT N2O!! , T56 Conversion w/ Pro 5.0 shifter, SPEC Stage 3 Clutch, Hotchkiss Subframe Conn., Lakewood Adj. Panhard Bar, Spohn Adj. LCA's, BMR Adj. T.A., Custom 12 bolt w/ 3:73's, Moser Axles, Eaton Posi, Moser Girdle
                  11.6 @ 123mph (1.6 60' - getting there )

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by fastTA
                    Took calculus in high school, 104 final grade, currently studying orbital angular momentum of photons for a thesis, calculus was "2+2" in comparison, if you know what I mean.
                    How long ago was high school?

                    Originally posted by fastTA
                    Gaussian huh, as opposed to "normal distribution" I suppose.
                    gaussian distribution IS normal distribution.

                    Originally posted by fastTA
                    Let's keep the focus on the orginal thread subject.
                    beginning to realize you could be wrong, eh?
                    Living in the pools, They soon forget about the sea...— Rush, "Natural Science" (1980)

                    Formerly "gauSSian" from my f-body days.

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                    • #55
                      hmmm...intresting. LoL, I hate math...see what it does when you know it...you're cocky as "h, e, double-hockie-sticks."

                      Intresting thread indeed...

                      Math..BLAH!

                      Christopher Teng

                      1999 · A4 · 3.73's · Auburn LSD · Whisper Lid · K&N · Pacesetter Headers/Y-pipe
                      Magnaflow Cat & Catback · MSD Coils/Wires · Bosch +4 Plugs · EGR Bypass
                      B&M SuperCooler · 160* Stat · Descreened MAF · SLP CAI · BMR STB & SFC
                      Strano Sways · Eibach Springs · Bilstein HD Shocks · Hawk-Pads · Brembo Blanks
                      Speedlines · Nitto 555s · Texas Speed Mail Tune

                      Lots of Weight Savings · Stubby Antenna · Corbeau TRS · Zaino · 273K

                      F-Body Dirty Dozen

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                      • #56
                        I got a C- in Differential Equations and based on my calculations, you guys are beating a dead horse.






                        96 TA Sold!
                        87 TA Sold!
                        80 Z28 Sold!
                        74 Formula Sold!
                        73 Z28 Sold!
                        69 Camaro Not Sold!

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Mirroredshades
                          I got a C- in Differential Equations and based on my calculations, you guys are beating a dead horse.

                          your calculations are right on the money. Sorry, I discovered this thread last night, after it had run its course, but I just could not leave it alone. Shame on me.
                          Living in the pools, They soon forget about the sea...— Rush, "Natural Science" (1980)

                          Formerly "gauSSian" from my f-body days.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            gaussian distribution IS normal distribution.
                            Quite aware of that, just trying to lighten things up a bit. It sounds like one of you could use the company of a women, if you catch my drift . Relax everything will be alright "normal distribution"

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by fastTA
                              My solid roller 383 is going together right now. I am going to be making quite a bit more power than my previous set up especially with the direct port n2o. I currently have a 9" rear with 4.11's and will be running a 28x10.5 MT drag. I will also be turning about 7 grand. According to the below calcluator I should not run out of gear until approx 147 mph:

                              I factored in 1 inch of overall tire growth (29"), and a 1:1 tranny ratio (third in my th400).

                              http://murray.faithweb.com/formulas.htm#find_mph

                              Do you think this is accurate Fred?
                              The 147mph is accurate, assuming you have a lock-up torque converter. I have about 10.5% slip with ny non-locking converter. That puts me closer to 132mph. That's why I will need to shift into O/D at the end of the track. Assuming a 3,600# race weight, I'm hoping for about 138mph.
                              Fred

                              381ci all-forged stroker - 10.8:1 - CNC LT4 heads/intake - CC solid roller - MoTeC engine management - 8 LS1 coils - 58mm TB - 78# injectors - 300-shot dry nitrous - TH400 - Gear Vendor O/D - Strange 12-bolt - 4.11's - AS&M headers - duals - Corbeau seat - AutoMeter gauges - roll bar - Spohn suspension - QA1 shocks - a few other odds 'n ends. 800HP/800lb-ft at the flywheel, on a 300-shot. 11.5 @ 117MPH straight motor

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                My current converter is a non-lockup. So with my 2830# race weight I might cutting it close on gear.

                                Originally posted by Injuneer:
                                I have about 10.5% slip with ny non-locking converter.
                                How do you determine the percentage of converter slip? I would imagine I am going to get quite a bit considering 1150+ lb/ft torque with the n20?

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