13.5

[tabahr]

Originally posted by MN6WS6
Sorry to bust any bubbles, but two equally equipped f-bodies, one with an auto and one with a manual, the auto will win every time. The auto cars launch harder because they can preload the rearend whereas us manual guys have to feather out of the hole to keep from breaking rearends.

Even with 12 bolts, the auto cars are faster because of the preload effect. There's a heads and cam full bolt on automatic LT1 at our track running within a .1 of my sprayed stick car, and I make 75 more HP at the tires with my setup. Auto is the way to go if you're drag racing.

That and the whole "consistancy" arguement. no missed shifts with the auto. Defenitely better for dragracing.

I think the stick is more *fun* though. I'm not in it to win races, I just love driving. The stick lets me participate more in the cars actions and feel more in tune with the road..

[MN6WS6]

I agree with you on the more fun part, but the sad thing for me is the only thing around here are dragstrips.

[redbird94]

so u think with the gears and the cat-back i should be well around 13.5 and with headers or torque converter i could break 12's?

[fastTa]

Originally posted by MN6WS6
...two equally equipped f-bodies, one with an auto and one with a manual, the auto will win every time. The auto cars launch harder because they can preload the rearend whereas us manual guys have to feather out of the hole to keep from breaking rearends.

Can you explain your "preloading the rear" theory in more detail. I and all the guys here at Alamo Performance are very interested in this.

Factory M6's have an advantage versus factory A4's

The reason I used the word FACTORY was because the stock 4L60E is setup to shift fairly smooth, and to obtain this the clutches are allowed to engage slower and with less force thus causing slippage and a slower trap speed.

In addition, it takes slightly more horsepower to turn an auto tranny because of the additional rotating mass.

The fact that the M6 has closer gear ratios also allows the motor to make better use of the multiplication of torque. The FACTORY 4L60E has to go from a 3.06 to a 1.63 gear ratio for the 1-2 shift, no matter what rear axle ratio you use that is a big gap in tranny gear ratios and really loses out big time on the 1-2 shift.

Two identical cars (w/o parts breaking, and getting traction) a FACTORY M6 will get a significant jump on the FACTORY 4L60E in the 60 ft due to the ability to launch from a much higher RPM which where our motors makes their peak HP (This is why high stall converters are used), and also considering both cars ran without problems, the FACTORY M6 will prevail in ET. If not the driver does not know how to shift.

FACTORY was the issue I was trying to stress

But yes an auto is the way to go for CONSISTENCY when you are serious.

My $.02

[Joe 1320]

Originally posted by fastTA
Can you explain your "preloading the rear" theory in more detail. I and all the guys here at Alamo Performance are very interested in this.



The reason I used the word FACTORY was because the stock 4L60E is setup to shift fairly smooth, and to obtain this the clutches are allowed to engage slower and with less force thus causing slippage and a slower trap speed.

In addition, it takes slightly more horsepower to turn an auto tranny because of the additional rotating mass.

The fact that the M6 has closer gear ratios also allows the motor to make better use of the multiplication of torque. The FACTORY 4L60E has to go from a 3.06 to a 1.63 gear ratio for the 1-2 shift, no matter what rear axle ratio you use that is a big gap in tranny gear ratios and really loses out big time on the 1-2 shift.

Two identical cars (w/o parts breaking, and getting traction) a FACTORY M6 will get a significant jump on the FACTORY 4L60E in the 60 ft due to the ability to launch from a much higher RPM which where our motors makes their peak HP (This is why high stall converters are used), and also considering both cars ran without problems, the FACTORY M6 will prevail in ET. If not the driver does not know how to shift.

FACTORY was the issue I was trying to stress

But yes an auto is the way to go for CONSISTENCY when you are serious.

My $.02

Just a reminder to be a little more open minded.....

I couldn't agree less. Preloading the driveline is what happens when you brake torque an automatic. All slack in the driveline is taken up while a load is placed on the engine and subsequently all through the rest of the driveline. There is considerable slack present and can easily be seen when putting an automatic into gear. It can also be noticed as you apply torque and watch the suspension move. The time for all these small parts to move including the suspension is minimized by placing a load against the driveline. If the performance shop has never heard of this and is a drag racing type shop, RUN AWAY VERY FAST. They would be completely clueless of the dynamics of drag racing, and I wouldn't trust them to take out my trash in the pits. Perhaps a road racing shop maybe?

As far as the launch, an A4 gets the advantage due to the torque multiplication of the converter. While a stick can launch at a higher rpm, the engine's torque still isn't multiplied.

While I won't get into a modified vs stock debate, there are numerous examples of automatics that get down the quarter as well if not better than a stick. Mostly perhaps due to driver error in a manual, but you cannot disregard the ability of an automatic to typically outlauch a manual. My 4L60E would bark 2nd and chirp 3rd right from the factory and did so for 105K miles. That doesn't sound too soft to me. Stock vs stock, my automatic would outlaunch a manual and hold the lead through the end of the quarter with the other car typically getting even with the back bumper. This was tested against a couple other 97 f-bodies at a Florida shootout event years back. There were also several law enforcement agencies that published the tests done on these cars to determine suitability for law enforcement use. Guess what? the auto got the choice....... it ran a quicker ET (but slower mph).

If I stepped back into the arena and decided to make drag racing a money venture, no doubt I would use an automatic. More consistant, easier on parts, runs just as good but you just don't have the fun of running a clutch. Just because it is an automatic does not mean it will always lose to a comparable stick car. It does that with many other types of small displacement engines, but usually the more torque an engine makes, the less a stick shift makes a differance. In the case of these cars, torque is king. Heck, Top Fuelers don't even need no stinking gears, they're a direct drive due to the monster torque.

Now modified cars... I'll pick an automatic again. Not that I don't have fun with stick cars. I also have one, but the automatic is the better choice for consistant drag racing. The last stick car I drag raced went 9.30s @ 148s while still on street rubber, so I can comment on that aspect as well. The automatic is just more pleasurable for the quarter mile blast. Provided you don't break traction, the chassis stays loaded the entire time wich really does make it a pleasurable drive. It's really the way to go for turbo applications as well.

For extended high rpm racing, stick is the only way to go. Same for road courses and autocross. Sticks are so much fun. The direct mechanical coupling is just such a sweet feeling combo.

[MN6WS6]

Ditto what Joe said. He gets up earlier than me, so he was able to defend my point of view

Further enforcing that, the fastest 4th gens in the world are in the 8.70-8.80 range, and all use automatics. The fastest 6 speed is still in the 9's to the best of my knowledge. That should tell you who the king is.

6 speeds shock the tires, rearend, everything on a launch, whereas an automatic can torque up and eliminate that. The average STOCK 6 speed 60 foot is 2.2-2.0. However, the average STOCK automatic 60 foot is 2.0-1.8. So a bad auto driver and an excellent 6 speed driver would be dead on out of the hole. Only then will the 6 speed be able to pull away, and he'd still have to pull off good shifts.

[fastTa]

Originally posted by MN6WS6
[B]the fastest 4th gens in the world are in the 8.70-8.80 range, and all use automatics.[B]

The fastest LS1 in the nation right now is running in the 7's.. It is a turbo 434 LS1 block solid roller motor, and a fiend of mine. He doesn't want to give out any more details than that. I welcome you to attend the "FASTEST LS1 SHOOTOUT" put together by 1BADLS1 and ls1tech.com. I will let you know when they determine a location

Joe maybe you could attend to for maybe a little WS6 vs. WS6 action

Now that I think about it maybe we should setup a "f-body.com" shootout! That would be fun.

[briantech]

I would own you all.

[Joe 1320]

I do love to run the quarter, hence the Joe 1320

I do miss my old ride. It should have been good for 8.90s but never really leaned on it with slicks. As soon as I get all my other small projects out of the way, my GN is getting a back half. Maybe my turbo Z project might get some recognition, but for now I'm keeping quiet on the specifics.

[Joe 1320]

Originally posted by briantech
I would own you all.

The only thing you would own is the ticket you purchased to get into the event

[MN6WS6]

What I should have said was fastest "stock suspension" 4th gens on the planet. You're talking about a Pro Stock or Pro Mod car, and that ain't no 4th gen. That's a "resembles a 4th gen's body lines" car.

[fastTa]

Actually it is a 2000 SS with "STOCK SUSPENSION". Upgraded things like torque arm, LCA's, SFC's, panhard, and springs/shocks of course, but theless STOCK in every other aspect!

He wants very badly to win the $15,000 take all first prize at this event! And I think he will have no competition, considering he won't have to get out of the throttle after 1/8 mile. 1600+ hp makes for some interesting driving skills in a '00 SS

Dynojets are only capable of recording up to 1200 rwhp, and he pegged their dyno. So the motor is now down the street on an engine dyno. This will be a very fun car to watch!!

[MN6WS6]

Well I hope everything works for him, cause he will blow everybody else out of the water with that car. The last I heard was Madman running 8.70's as the stock suspension champion.

Oh yeah, your buddy might have a little competition heading his way. Actually a guy that lives nearby me. He's got something coming in the stock suspension category. Rumor has it will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000 HP.

Sounds like records will fall this year

[fastTa]

It is simply bewildering the amount of horsepower people are squeezing out of turbo LS1's and C5R setups lately !