need some help, please engine experts >>

[NY_Rebel]

I had one fill a cylinder with fuel, when we tried to crank it it slammed like it hit a wall. Surprisingly, no damage occured to any of the internal components.

I had a customer with a 4.3 suck an intake gasket allowing coolant into the cylinder. The result:
1 bent rod
1 compromised head gasket
1 trashed starter drive
1 trashed flex plate

This is kinda extream but it can happen. It all depends on how much momentum has built up when the lock occurs

Had another customer took a 5.0 Bronco swimming (engine was running):
2 rods, 2 pistons + gaskets and all was well....so they can all be different.

Don't get discouraged and remember to use this as a learning tool and it'll be worth it in the long run

[Kevin - Blown 95 TA]

I had a friend that had his car get rained on when it was in the middle of being worked on. It was a carbuereted car and the air cleaner and hood was off. He didn't realize rain got in the engine and when it wouldn't turn over he towed it behind a truck 60 mph and dumped the clutch. it bent some of the rods for the cylinders that had got filled with water. Tough way to learn about hydro lock.

[Craig 94 TA GT]

Hey Kevin (fastTA) I really, really appreciate your offer
If I need the rod(s), I guess I'll let you know. Just let me know how you want shipping payment. But of course, that's worse case scenario!! Hopefully I won't need to get to that stage, as we mostly think there's no internal damage.

NY_Rebel, it's good to hear you had no internal damage the time you had a cylinder full of fuel. Again, that would be my guess what's happening, but just before I took the T/A in, it would crank over fine, just not catch. The only time it didn't crank over was when it seemed like the battery was getting low. Several seconds later, it would crank again (and after a small charge from the charger). I really don't see how an internally damaged component or even hydrolock would seize the motor whenever it wants to, then decide to free it up. I'll almost bet it's the battery. And as far as the mechanic saying it only turns 1 way, I'm going to explore that more.

[Craig 94 TA GT]

need help fast

I just got off the phone with the mechanic...he thinks I have a dropped valve because the engine will turn but will seize up. He has to turn it backwards a bit for it to turn correctly again. So everytime he turns it 1 way, he has to back it up a bit, then it will continue to turn. That's according to him. Before I took it in, it would turn over???

He wants to remove my valve covers to see if I have a dropped valve. I kept telling him to check for hydrolock, but according to him, if it were hydrolock, it wouldn't turn either way, period. I told him just to fix my fuel pressure with new injectors and a regulator. However, he says if it still isn't running, then it wouldn't be covered by the insurance. I'm trying to call up the insurance now and see what they say. How in the world could I have dropped a valve when I only drove the car 30 miles since the good compression check??? What would it have sounded like?

[fastTa]

Craig it is not good for that mechanic to be turning your engine backwards. The valvetrain components, the main bearings, the crankshaft, the camshaft, camshaft bearings, lifters, etc. have all developed a wear pattern in one correct direction. Turning all these parts backwards is never a good idea. He should know this.

Just wanted to give you a heads up!

[Craig 94 TA GT]

Thanks for the info Kevin... I had a feeling that was bad for the motor, but I didn't want to say anything because I never confirmed it. Is it possible for some moron to turn it backwards initially which now screwed something up?

Still for insurance company to call

[fastTa]

Dropped valves aren't uncommon in LT1's. I broke the stock valve locks on my intake valve on cylinder #4 in my stock heads (The mods haven't ceased since! ). The motor would still turn easily, you coould just feel the piston making contact with the valve.

It is really hard to say why your motor is not turning over properly as there could be several possibilities, but I think it would be wise to get a second opinion.

I had a hard time at first finding someone around here that I trusted.

[Craig 94 TA GT]

I completely agree...can't trust hardly anyone, especially with our babies! lol

Anyways, I just got off the phone with the insurance. I basically have 2 options. Once I find out the real problem by proper diagosis, I can
1) If it is not an internal problem, I can get the injectors and regulator replaced, all expenses covered by them.
2) If it is an internal problem, I will have another 2 choices:
a) The car will be totalled, and I will get the money for the value of the car But I can always buy it back and fix it myself. Or I can buy another car...which I will never do because the sentimental value for this car is unpriceable.
b) I can tell them to simply replace the injectors and regulator because I am still losing fuel pressure, which is part of the initial problem. However, to save a title from being called "totalled", I can fix the motor myself. I won't get any more money from them, and after payment of the injectors/regulator, the case will be considered closed.

Again, I still don't see how I could have dropped a valve when I heard absolutely nothing, and the compression check shows good results. I guess it's still possible, but something just doesn't seem right.

[Dave M]

If I were you, I'd take option 2b. You get new injectors and FPR out of it, and you can take your time and fix any other problems the right way. And you'll still have your car (with a clear title). That sounds like the best option to me, but it depends on how confident you are in your mechanical abilities.

[TraceZ]

Are the spark plugs still in it? The next step is to remove the plugs and try to turn it. Until you do that, you are wasting your time, bro.

If it wont turn over with the plugs out, you have an interference somewhere... not a good thing. Start by removing the valve covers, inspect the valves, then remove the heads and inspect the pistons, then if need be, remove the block and inspect the rods and crank.

Good luck, I hope it spins easily with the plugs out. If it does, do a compresison test on each cylinder, make sure there is no liquid in them, change the oil and fire it up.

It'll be music to your ears

[Jeff_in_Atl]

Originally posted by TraceZ
Are the spark plugs still in it? The next step is to remove the plugs and try to turn it. Until you do that, you are wasting your time, bro.

If it wont turn over with the plugs out, you have an interference somewhere... not a good thing. Start by removing the valve covers, inspect the valves, then remove the heads and inspect the pistons, then if need be, remove the block and inspect the rods and crank.

Good luck, I hope it spins easily with the plugs out. If it does, do a compresison test on each cylinder, make sure there is no liquid in them, change the oil and fire it up.

It'll be music to your ears

I agree. It is not a proper (good) diagnosis until the "mechanic" takes the plugs out to see if the motor is frozen or if anything is knocking. Like Joe says, start with the basics. Make sure it will turn without funny noises. Do a compression check. I can't believe the mechanic hasn't done that. Check for spark. Check for fuel. Sounds like the first thing to do is find a new mechanic.

[Trans Am]

hi Craig


this message is for encouragement only, i dont really know anything that will help you, but i ll let you know if i find out why my 93 trans am wont start. Insted i totally understand how you feel about it as my car just died last year and i couldnt start it since. Also i didnt like any other car since i got my trans am. I just love my car, even now

just dont trust any mechanic- i live in europe and someone wanted 1200$ plus tax and labor for a stock fuel pump!!! this happens to me for any part i want to buy : they just ask for what car its for and really pump up the price, also this happens when i take the car to service stations
i think that its best to try and fix the car yourself, thats what i am doing as mechanics here havent even seen a pontiac before, maybe on tv. they have wrecked my starter so far and maybe some rod.
so i started searching on the internet for info on the car -by the way thans all you guys who share your knowledge here (i bet if i had a honda i couldnt find stuff like this )

my car has the same problem (meaning i dont know whats wrong). Maybe someone has poured sugar in my tank too
After 7 months i finally found a fuel pump at a reasonable price (~150$) , installed it, changed ffuel filter and i ll change the spark plugs as soon as i get them (can you belive it - i cant find spark plugs here only for about 25$ a piece), then i ll change the fpr and leky fuel injectors. first i ll take the plugs out and turn the engine by hand

i really hate it ..my car used to nrun so smooth, it started really esy at -20 degrees celsius

Anyway i wish you luck with your car

[markd79ta]

Craig,

Take option B and get the injectors and regulator replaced since they were obviously hosed by the sugar; bring home the car, and start the diagnostic yourself:

1. Remove all of the plugs: Check for broken spark plug parts, fluid...check the condition of the plugs, fouled, etc. (make sure you blow off any dirt before taking out the plugs and proceeding with step 2)
2. Leave the car in neutral and turn the motor with a breaker bar on the balancer hub: It should freely turn with no compression...listen for grinding noises. If there isn't any problems, do another compression check, and then check the starter, starter solenoid, etc.
3. If the motor does not turn, pull the valve covers and check for valve damage by turning the crank as in step 2: if there is valve damage, you will need to pull the heads to see if the valves damaged the pistons in any way.
4. If the valves look OK, pull the oil pan and check the crank, rods, etc.
5. If everything is functioning as it should, or if fluid pours out of one or all of the cylinders you will know how to proceed. Additionally, if the cylinder is partially filled with coolant or fuel, the crank will turn partially. The mechanic is not going about this the right way. The symptoms point to a fuel problem...it is very likely that you were dumping fuel into the motor.

...you will know what is wrong if you follow these steps. Good luck...I hate to hear about your continuing problems. Dang, I had a nightmare about this happening to my car the other night.

[NY_Rebel]

Originally posted by NY_Rebel
The easiest way to eliminate hydraulic lock as the problem is to remove ALL the sparkplugs. This opens the cylinders and the engine can expell any liguid that has accumulated. Don't spin the engine with the starter to do this, because if the cylinder is filled with fuel, it will shoot it all over the engine compartment, turn it manually.
Now, if you have all the spark plugs out and you cannot turn the engine manually, you have internal engine damage. If your engine hydraulic locked you can STILL HAVE ROD DAMAGE, this can be caused simply by attempting to crank it. Liquid cannot be compressed, so....if you have liquid in the cylinder that is greater than the combustion chamber volume, something has to "give" in order for the engine to complete it's rotation and the rod is the "weak" link there.
If you don't trust your mechanic, you have a problem, the only way to know for sure what's going on is to get someone down there with you that does know about engines and get the mechanic to show him what he has checked, how he checked it, and then go from there.
This is also a good time for you to take a lot of notes so you can't be "taken" by a dishonest mechanic in the future.
And BTW, not all indy, backyard shop mechanics are rip off artist, there are some VERY GOOD ONES out there. As a matter of fact, most of the BEST ALL AROUND mechanics are indy's.

As for the backing up an engine....It doesn't hurt it to do it by hand.....even the pro's do it on race engines.....never known it hurt one yet

[fastTa]

Originally posted by Jeff 95 Z28
I agree. It is not a proper (good) diagnosis until the "mechanic" takes the plugs out to see if the motor is frozen or if anything is knocking. Like Joe says, start with the basics. Make sure it will turn without funny noises. Do a compression check. I can't believe the mechanic hasn't done that. Check for spark. Check for fuel. Sounds like the first thing to do is find a new mechanic.

Couldn't agree more! I think you should pull the plug on this mechanic.