George Dubya is the man!

[Jeff_in_Atl]

Originally posted by TrAnS Am 98
wasnt kerry in vietnam??

For 4 months.

He got a notice from his draft board and went to them asking for a 1 year deference to go to France for "study". The draft board said no, so he went and joined the navy. Sounds to me like he didn't want to be drafted which would have put him on dry land which put him at a higher risk of getting in a fire fight. There wasn't much Navy that was in harms way during Vietnam. Just the patrol boats. The carriers, frigates and destroyers were off shore with no opposing Navy. An Army officer had a lot higher death rate than a Navy officer.

[Jeff_in_Atl]

Originally posted by Black97

Jeff, yes the numbers are up. The Enron #'s were up too until they came tumbling down. Wallstreet is the sand box for the richest of the richest. They decide what goes up or down so they can make the most profits. I don't think they hold a real value. Look at all the companies that stated record earnings but in the real world they were bankrupt. Wallstreet went right along with it!!??

There are going to be bad people in business. That can happen with an open economy. But that isn't Bush's fault. Remember these people didn't start being corrupt when Bush came into office. They were corrupt when Clinton was there to. This is a separate issue than politics.

Originally posted by Black97

http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid...s_armed_forces

How long do you think the american people are going to put up with this?

I will be the first to cheer when the troops come home. But if we leave now, more than likely there will be a revolution and another dictatorship will take control and the 600 lives that have been lost up till now will be totally wasted.

Originally posted by Black97

Who do you think is going to pay for the Billions that are being spent for the next couple of years in foreign contries? Bush may look like the hero now but onces he's out of the office, somebody else will have to make arrangements to pay for all this (tax hikes) and let me tell you this will be a mighty unpopular President.

Not necessarily. There is a strange phenomenon when the government cuts taxes. When you cut taxes, people have more money to spend. 99 times out of 100 they spend it. This stimulates the economy. People have to be hired to produce the products and services that this money is spent on. Now there are more people making money. Guess what, the spend it to. It perpetuates itself. Corporate revenues goes up. The companies have to pay more taxes. So do the people. The revenue taken in by the government actually goes up. More than what they gave in tax cuts. JFK proved it in the 60's. Reagan proved it in the 80's. GWB proved it in the 00's (2002-2004 lol). Clinton actually cut taxes in I think 1993 and the economy grew.

Don't get me wrong, government spending is way out of control. We have to spend it whether we have it or not on security but the pork barrel spending is ridiculous. $20,000 to a ceiling fan company to R&D a low energy ceiling fan is a joke.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I don't have the time to discuss the healthcare issue.

[briantech98]

Originally posted by Jeff 95 Z28
There are going to be bad people in business. That can happen with an open economy. But that isn't Bush's fault. Remember these people didn't start being corrupt when Bush came into office. They were corrupt when Clinton was there to. This is a separate issue than politics.

And the haliburton company really puts a big warm fuzzy feeling right in my heart. So good to know that the bush administration has only but the *closest* ties to a big, bad, evil company. There are going to be bad people in business, but at least there are some *good* people as well. There's no such thing as a good politician, only degrees of bad. If you seriously think that GWB, with all his ties to the OIL industry, and all his pocketlining friends back in texas is good...

I will be the first to cheer when the troops come home. But if we leave now, more than likely there will be a revolution and another dictatorship will take control and the 600 lives that have been lost up till now will be totally wasted.

Am I the only one who wants to say "tough @!%#" to the people in iraq? I'm sorry but if we leave, and all of a sudden the iraqi people are overrun with looters, murderers, suicide bombers... oh well? we tried. terrorism is a way of life over there, its just a big, swarming nest of religion-fueld hate. why do we have to go bust our nuts and get all messed up in their business?

oh thats right. oil. america's got plenty of problems in our own borders that that 198 kadrillion billion dollars could be better spent on fixing.

Not necessarily. There is a strange phenomenon when the government cuts taxes. When you cut taxes, people have more money to spend. 99 times out of 100 they spend it. This stimulates the economy. People have to be hired to produce the products and services that this money is spent on. Now there are more people making money. Guess what, the spend it to. It perpetuates itself. Corporate revenues goes up. The companies have to pay more taxes. So do the people. The revenue taken in by the government actually goes up. More than what they gave in tax cuts. JFK proved it in the 60's. Reagan proved it in the 80's. GWB proved it in the 00's (2002-2004 lol). Clinton actually cut taxes in I think 1993 and the economy grew.

you seem to keep forgetting that we are trillions of dollars in debt now. cutting taxes isn't going to get us out of that. thats how math works.

Don't get me wrong, government spending is way out of control. We have to spend it whether we have it or not on security but the pork barrel spending is ridiculous. $20,000 to a ceiling fan company to R&D a low energy ceiling fan is a joke.
[/B]

i completely agree.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by briantech98
you seem to keep forgetting that we are trillions of dollars in debt now. cutting taxes isn't going to get us out of that. thats how math works.

Actually, we are billions of dollars in debt. Not to nit-pick, but when the numbers get that high, it makes a difference.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by Jeff 95 Z28

Not necessarily. There is a strange phenomenon when the government cuts taxes. When you cut taxes, people have more money to spend. 99 times out of 100 they spend it. This stimulates the economy. People have to be hired to produce the products and services that this money is spent on. Now there are more people making money. Guess what, the spend it to. It perpetuates itself. Corporate revenues goes up. The companies have to pay more taxes. So do the people. The revenue taken in by the government actually goes up. More than what they gave in tax cuts. JFK proved it in the 60's. Reagan proved it in the 80's. GWB proved it in the 00's (2002-2004 lol). Clinton actually cut taxes in I think 1993 and the economy grew.

Don't get me wrong, government spending is way out of control. We have to spend it whether we have it or not on security but the pork barrel spending is ridiculous. $20,000 to a ceiling fan company to R&D a low energy ceiling fan is a joke.

I like Jeff, he is always right.

[fastTa]

I hate to nit-pick even further, but we are actually over 7 Trillion in debt.

[briantech98]

if you're going to nitpick... at least get your facts straight

we are 7 trillion dollars in debt. 7 TRILLION. do you have any idea how much money that is? any idea?

technically it is $7,126,016,192,000.68 [1].

the national debt has increased an average of 1.86 billion dollars, every SINGLE DAY, since september 2003. woo go george bush! help the USA!

YOUR share of this debt is around $25 thousand dollars. forget that turbo kit for your LS1 kiddo, we gotta pay back the loans GWB took out so that he could send our troops halfway around the earth to stick our noses in business we never should have been interested in.

and i dont think a measly $300 tax cut is going to fix *anything*.




[1]http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

[AmericanZ28]

Originally posted by Jeff 95 Z28
For 4 months.

He got a notice from his draft board and went to them asking for a 1 year deference to go to France for "study". The draft board said no, so he went and joined the navy. Sounds to me like he didn't want to be drafted which would have put him on dry land which put him at a higher risk of getting in a fire fight. There wasn't much Navy that was in harms way during Vietnam. Just the patrol boats. The carriers, frigates and destroyers were off shore with no opposing Navy. An Army officer had a lot higher death rate than a Navy officer.

Unlike Bush, he didn't go running to his Daddy to keep him from getting drafted. GWB got his Daddy to assign him to the Texas Air National Guard instead. This is in no way more credible than joining the Navy IMO. Although neither really got put in any real danger, Kerry was the bigger man in this particular situation.

I keep hearing people give Bush credit for his military actions againts foreign threats. Clinton too took some major and important actions againts tyranny. Does no one remember remember Bosnia? He also stopped the ethnic cleansing that was going on in Kosovo. Can that not be considered "Priceless," since he too saved many people from un-just executions? Moreover, if fault is going to be given to Clinton for some of Bushs's economic drawbacks, then credit should also be given to Clinton since it was CLINTONS ARMY that Bush sent into Afghanistan and Iraq! It was Clintons Army that caught Saddam, and went into remove the Taliban. Give credit where credit is due.

Did you guys know that Bush did nothing when he was told that the second plane had hit one of the twin towers? This is really creepy! He was told "America is under attack," and he sat there for 5 minutes as if nothing was going on. What possible explanation could anyone have for this? View the details here:
Bush's Reaction to 911
On top of that, he is the one president that has taken more time off than any other president in the history of the US! A great ammount of time of his presidency has been spent on vacations.
Vacation

Furthermore, what makes The Religious Right any different than the Taliban? How can anyone stand and support the President of the US while he imposes his own personal religious beliefs on society? Is he not capable of setting his own standars without having to rely on his religious beliefs? What does this say about a president who relies on his own personal religion to help guide the ways of a religiously diverse nation? Tracy, Jay, can you guys back me up on this?

Finally, if President Clinton was such a bad president, then why are Bush's campaign ads showing Clinton? Ill tell you why, it's because Clinton is the benchmark, and the Republican party knows this! Why else would they show Clinton? He's not even running for president, and hasnt ran since 1994. What I dont understand is why some of the people on this board are having such a hard time accepting the fact that Clinton was a GREAT PRESIDENT! I was in favor of many of Bush's policies, and as a Democrat, will admit that he is a good president. But theres is much room for improvement! It's time for a change!


How Bush Stole The Election

[N20LT4Bird]

Originally posted by AmericanZ28

Furthermore, what makes The Religious Right any different than the Taliban? How can anyone stand and support the President of the US while he imposes his own personal religious beliefs on society? Is he not capable of setting his own standars without having to rely on his religious beliefs? What does this say about a president who relies on his own personal religion to help guide the ways of a religiously diverse nation? Tracy, Jay, can you guys back me up on this?

Presidents have been relying on their religious beliefs since this country was born. This is a Judeo-Christian nation - liberals have a hard time with this - spouting off about seperation of church and state without even knowing what it means. This nation was founded on Christian principles - most our founding fathers were Christians. Unfortunately the role of God has dwindled in recent past, but we can still see the remains of what it was supposed to be - We say it in our pledge - its on our money - our laws are based upon Gods Laws. Now, as a free nation you are free to believe how you want - but that wont change the what this nation is built upon - and what makes this nation great.

Originally posted by AmericanZ28


Finally, if President Clinton was such a bad president, then why are Bush's campaign ads showing Clinton? Ill tell you why, it's because Clinton is the benchmark, and the Republican party knows this! Why else would they show Clinton? He's not even running for president, and hasnt ran since 1994. What I dont understand is why some of the people on this board are having such a hard time accepting the fact that Clinton was a GREAT PRESIDENT! I was in favor of many of Bush's policies, and as a Democrat, will admit that he is a good president. But theres is much room for improvement! It's time for a change!


How Bush Stole The Election

Clinton was an immoral person who lied to us blatently! What do his policies matter? IF you cant trust the guy - who wants him?? He was an EMBARRASSMENT to the office. Being president is much more than lowering deficit and creating jobs.

If we lose Bush this year, mark my words - the terrorists will be moving in. Like it was mentioned earlier - they fear us. Why - in large part due to Bush's leadership. If CLinton were in office he probably would have handled 9-11 the same way he did every other terrorist attack - ignore it or screw it up.

[TraceZ]

Originally posted by AmericanZ28
Furthermore, what makes The Religious Right any different than the Taliban? How can anyone stand and support the President of the US while he imposes his own personal religious beliefs on society? Is he not capable of setting his own standars without having to rely on his religious beliefs? What does this say about a president who relies on his own personal religion to help guide the ways of a religiously diverse nation? Tracy, Jay, can you guys back me up on this?

Finally, if President Clinton was such a bad president, then why are Bush's campaign ads showing Clinton? Ill tell you why, it's because Clinton is the benchmark, and the Republican party knows this! Why else would they show Clinton? He's not even running for president, and hasnt ran since 1994. What I dont understand is why some of the people on this board are having such a hard time accepting the fact that Clinton was a GREAT PRESIDENT! I was in favor of many of Bush's policies, and as a Democrat, will admit that he is a good president. But theres is much room for improvement! It's time for a change!

Here is how I see politics and religion: 2 assumptions.
1) Men believe in religion.
2 Government is run by man

With that in mind... Try to tell someone that values they hold because of their religion, are not to be voiced politically. It's impossible because no man can do it.

It would be like saying "I am against abortion because i'm a christian and have been raised believing it is wrong, but even though I believe so strongly against it I am going to vote for it."

As far as Clinton.... He was a decent president. He actually did do a good job, but I really dont like the fact he lied under oath and made a mockery of the oval office with Monica. He made a new standard. Oral sex is not really sex, and it is ok to lie. High school kids all over America heard that message loud and clear.

[briantech98]

Originally posted by N20LT4Bird
Clinton was an immoral person who lied to us blatently! What do his policies matter? IF you cant trust the guy - who wants him?? He was an EMBARRASSMENT to the office. Being president is much more than lowering deficit and creating jobs.

bushII is an immoral person who lied to us blatently. bushII was a real embarrassment to this country. I dont recall ever seeing any t-shirts with a picture of clinton that said "NOT MY PRESIDENT" across the top, did you? Cause there's tons like that for bush.

Clinton lied about getting some lovin. BushII lied to get us into the bloodiest, most expensive, unwanted, unneccessary, and unjustified war of this century. He had a personal vendetta to goto war with the middle east, cause thats what the puppet masters pulling his strings wanted him to do. An evil president is unexcusable... but the mindless lemming of a facade president we have now is even worse, cause then at least we can't see who's responsible for the decisions. bush sure aint makin em!

What do his policies matter? Because thats what being a president MEANS. Look quite frankly, you could dig up the dirtiest, most immoral slimebag greaseball drug dealer pimp and stick him in the oval office... but if he was commited to doing the JOB of the PRESIDENCY, and he did it WELL, I wouldn't care! The personal characteristics of a president are really irrelivant when it comes to how they actually do their job, and that is all that matters. The government is not a soverignty, it is simply supposed to be a framework for allowing the PEOPLE to decide what they want for their country. I'm so sick and tired of the way the presidential office is run ... we vote for a guy and then all we can do is sit around with our thumbs up our [...] hoping he does the right thing, while he is in complete power to do whatever he wants.

If we lose Bush this year, mark my words - the terrorists will be moving in. Like it was mentioned earlier - they fear us. Why - in large part due to Bush's leadership. If CLinton were in office he probably would have handled 9-11 the same way he did every other terrorist attack - ignore it or screw it up.

Terrorists... fear us? Are you kidding? You really haven't the slightest knowledge of the middle east, do you. They aren't afraid of us, not one little bit. They hate us. We are the evil empire to them, and they are the rebels. We are the oppressive, capatilist Western Empire, here to impose our values, morals, and way of life upon them. If someone came over to OUR country, and demanded we show them our WMD factories, and when we couldn't they "shock and awed" the US capitol, would you be afraid of them? heck no, you'd be ready to go kick their butts. you'd despise them.

well guess what, it works the other way too. if you want to talk about fear, talk about the suicide bombers that walk into crowded bus stations. Those guys seem real afraid to me. Or how about the iraqi rebels fighting US tanks and smart bombs with ak-47's. Yeah they seem real afraid to me.

Bottom line, we don't scare them, they just aren't powerful enough to hurt us yet. But everyone in the world hates us pretty much. We had the planets sympathy immediately after 911, but bush2 just went and pissed that all away in a hurry. Anyone not watch CNN while the shock and awe was going on? The largest, most massive anti-war rallies were going on ALL OVER the world. Yeah, you can say "!#% the hippies" all you want, but when theres that many people saying "no, this is wrong" maybe you should, possibly, for one tiny second, take a step outside your elitist republican bubble and realize that the US was never elected to lead this planet, we are not the freaking earth police, and the middle east is not our political play ground. Terrorists suck, but leaders of the most powerful nation on earth who do not understand, at the most fundamental level, exactly WHAT they are !%#(!*ing with suck way worse.

[N20LT4Bird]

First off, you may want to check in to some of the things you say, before you say them.....

I feel enclined to not even respond, but I have to say is that if you believe that the war on terror is the most bloodiest, most expensive, war you should do some more research. If you think it is unjustified and unwanted.......Im sorry, I dont want to live in a world fearing the Osama's and Saddams and what they are going to do next.....Bush is kicking ass and taking names. Thats what needs to be done...any more liberal point of view is very nice....but unfortunately a fairy tale.

By the way, you may want to watch it.....lets keep it civil here.

[Jeff_in_Atl]

Originally posted by briantech98

BushII lied to get us into the bloodiest, most expensive, unwanted, unneccessary, and unjustified war of this century.

Lets start with some fact and not accusations. What did Bush lie about? Be specific. Don't just make a blanket statement. List examples point by point.

example.
1. He lied about WMDs in Iraq.
2. He lied.......

[briantech98]

Originally posted by N20LT4Bird
First off, you may want to check in to some of the things you say, before you say them.....

i'm the only one who's been throwing sources up for the things i say...

I feel enclined to not even respond, but I have to say is that if you believe that the war on terror is the most bloodiest, most expensive, war you should do some more research.

Read what I said again, perhaps it will be clearer then.

If you think it is unjustified and unwanted.......Im sorry, I dont want to live in a world fearing the Osama's and Saddams and what they are going to do next

neither do I. Thats the point. Bush's foreign policy is a joke at best. "shoot first ask questions later" is not the way to run the worlds #1 superpower.

.....Bush is kicking ass and taking names.

... right. Look this isn't the old west, and this isn't a movie. Bush is ticking people off and making enemies, thats about it. As the superior power in the world it is our undeniable duty to make sure that the decisions this country makes are completely fair, balanced, well thought out, researched, level headed and democratic to its utmost definition. Something this administration has failed at.

By the way, you may want to watch it.....lets keep it civil here.

I'm sorry you don't agree with my opinions but I assure you, I am being nothing but civil.

Lets start with some fact and not accusations. What did Bush lie about? Be specific. Don't just make a blanket statement. List examples point by point.

example.
1. He lied about WMDs in Iraq.
2. He lied.......

First off... isn't #1 enough?? How can you just glaze that over?

But regardless. Heeeere ya go.

29 specific lies bush said about the iraq war:
http://www.bushwatch.com/bushlies.htm

20 or so more lies about general policies bush lied about:
http://www.house.gov/appropriations_...ughtonfilm.htm

catagorized, indexed list of lies bush has said:
http://www.bushlies.net/pages/1/

there are more.


the fact that he lied about the existence of WMD in iraq is simply the largest, most outstanding lie that I simply must just shake my head at in disbelief that the american public is standing up for... *especially* when people bring up the topic that clinton lied, in some effort to, what? show that lying is ok? I dont get that argument. "Well clinton lied about his sexual actions, therefore bush lying about the existence of WMD's is justified"?

[Jeff_in_Atl]

Originally posted by briantech98


First off... isn't #1 enough?? How can you just glaze that over?

But regardless. Heeeere ya go.

29 specific lies bush said about the iraq war:
http://www.bushwatch.com/bushlies.htm

20 or so more lies about general policies bush lied about:
http://www.house.gov/appropriations_...ughtonfilm.htm

catagorized, indexed list of lies bush has said:
http://www.bushlies.net/pages/1/

there are more.


the fact that he lied about the existence of WMD in iraq is simply the largest, most outstanding lie that I simply must just shake my head at in disbelief that the american public is standing up for... *especially* when people bring up the topic that clinton lied, in some effort to, what? show that lying is ok? I dont get that argument. "Well clinton lied about his sexual actions, therefore bush lying about the existence of WMD's is justified"?

Here is the definition of lie per www.m-w.com .
Main Entry: 3lie
Function: verb
1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression

Now do these lies that you list qualify for the definition of the word lie? Now remember that a lie is a lie when at the time it is spoken is known to be untrue. If someone were to say something that he believed to be true and later it turned it to be false it is not a lie. It is a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. The question is then intent. That is where the morality comes in.

Trie to look past partisan politics and ask if each point makes sense.