The Goat

[Performin Norman]

It all comes down to supply, demand and profit. If the car is very appealing to the public, it will sell and they will continue to build the car. Obviously, this car did not appeal to the masses so it is not selling well. Here in KC, they are selling GTOs at super low prices.

[wolfdogs]

It all comes down to supply, demand and profit. If the car is very appealing to the public, it will sell and they will continue to build the car. Obviously, this car did not appeal to the masses so it is not selling well. Here in KC, they are selling GTOs at super low prices.

here in the dc area...the dealers wont let them go under sticker! and they cant get enough..............

[raroZ28]

first, i never said "you" were ignorant...i said the post was in the comparison you made.... second...the car is "useless"....what the heck does that mean? thats pretty stupid thing to say..how can it be "useless"...it'll walk all over your camaro........it may be bland in your opinion...thats fine....but "useless"....

it aint useless to those who own them and enjoy driving them....

im not offended...believe me.... i just believe in speaking in counter

Useless in the sense that it is not a really practical sports car, and it is not a practical family car/grocery getter. WTF is it? A grocery getter with a big motor that handles well and gets 12 mpg? Give me a break. It is less practical (more useless) than the chevy SSR. That is what I mean by useless.

My camaro is almost ten years old man, and it's got a tired old LT1. See me next summer and we'll see who walks who, who gets better gas, who outhandles, and who looks better going down the road, shine aside You do have one thing on the camaro... We don't see as many GTO's on the road as we do Camaro's. Guess I'm not too alone in the way I think

[wolfdogs]

Ok, I think I have the qualifications to chime in on this. I agree with pretty much everything Ken said except for the part about him being "so pretty and all".

Anyway, I own an 05 GTO. I think it looks like a Cavalier on steroids, but is a rocket inside. Not as fast as My SS was stock, but a lot more fun and comfortable. I like being in "stealth mode" now. I can get on it and the police don't hear me. lol I guess maybe it is an age thing, I'm 42 and had enough of my ear bleeding SS. It was fast and stylish, but I get a bigger smile driving the GTO.

Just one more qualification for the comments in this post: My daily driver is a 90 Mustang LX 5.0! I love that car too, but it has its place...........which is behind any F-Body or GTO.

you just think its not faster than your SS stock.......because the acceleration is 'muffled"... that LS2 gto is faster than the stock LS1 Camaro SS hands down.... thats unless you are talking about "after" you did your juicie woocie stuff..........LOL

[Steel2686]

here in the dc area...the dealers wont let them go under sticker! and they cant get enough..............

Same here in CT.... at least with the 05's. It's funny. When I was looking at a T/A at a local Pontiac dealer in March, there were still two brand new 2004 Goats on the lot, but they couldn't get any 05's in for the list of people they had for them.

I'm in the GTO's camp. I like the car no matter what they call it. A badge is just a badge. It may not have the same type of looks as the old GTO's, but it doesn't take away from the legacy. If you see a '66 Goat rolling down the street, you certainly wouldn't think to yourself "Man, that's a nice car that could be nicer if GM didn't release a new one". They are what they are.

I give GM credit for backing up the name with some power. It's more than most car companies have done in the past with some great names... even GM (80's Nova econo-car )

[Performin Norman]

Here's what I just heard. If you want a GTO, come to KC and get one. It'll save you about $10,000.

[wolfdogs]

Is it a decent car...probably. A GTO, it is not! It may have an LS2, but it has few qualities deserving of a GTO. Since they can't even manage to sell $15,000 a year, it is obvious that it will never be accepted. It is GM's modern day Edsel. I drive by the largest Pontiac dealership everyday on my way to my son's day-care. They have not sold one GTO in the past three months, and they still have '04s on the lot starting in the low 20s. If it was badged as something else like a Grand Prix GTP coupe or better a Grand National, it probably would have done better. If you get one, expect it to depreciate faster then a bowling ball thrown out of an airplane.

This is my opinion of why it is rejected. Since it is a bland looking car (absolutely zero muscle car appeal), it falls into the daily driver market. It is way too bland to be a second fun car. It is totally impractical as a daily driver since it sucks gas (gas guzzler tax on the auto), and it has no room for a family. So, there are two market segments who may be interested in this...20 somethings who don't have the money so they buy the sport compacts (which is in right now anyway), and the older crowd whos kids have left the nest. However, the older crowd will typically buy European or the upscale Asian cars...who really cares about Pontiac anymore? Now, the biggest failure, it in no way inspires any of the old Pontiac faithful like me...I don't want some warmed over import badged as a GTO in my stable so consequently, these people won't buy the car as a collectable. The car has no identity...it will probably be discontinued after '06, and hopefully forgotten.

the "gto" is a large muscle car of the past.....a cast iron beamoth.......

look at the old grand prix and the new one........

times changed... some have the mind set of the old gto and cant let that go.... just like if they brought back the Chevelle SS... i had a 68...would it "be the same"? no. does that make it "not deserving"? no.

Seems some of the auto enthusiasts have blinders on when it comes to yesterday vs today......... especially in technology...and design...

This car is a Manaro in pontiac clothing... and the Manaro is a very well respected car...

its just not caught on yet......and if i doesnt...oh well...

i know i like it........and the bottom line to me at my age is,...thats all that counts.

[markd79ta]

It all comes down to supply, demand and profit. If the car is very appealing to the public, it will sell and they will continue to build the car. Obviously, this car did not appeal to the masses so it is not selling well. Here in KC, they are selling GTOs at super low prices.

Same thing here in Colorado. The GTOs just sit. All of the 05s are marked down. I don't think I have actually seen one on the street.

[JUICEDSS]

you just think its not faster than your SS stock.......because the acceleration is 'muffled"... that LS2 gto is faster than the stock LS1 Camaro SS hands down.... thats unless you are talking about "after" you did your juicie woocie stuff..........LOL

My SS would hook and go. (A4) Ran a 12.82 bone stock. No way the GTO will do that. Right off the bat, the GTO is heavier and wheel hops like a rabbit. That extra HP does squat unless you can get it to the ground. I am talking stock to stock here, I do realize with some suspension mods I could do the same as the SS.

(I still like my GTO better.) :P

[markd79ta]

the "gto" is a large muscle car of the past.....a cast iron beamoth.......

look at the old grand prix and the new one........

times changed... some have the mind set of the old gto and cant let that go.... just like if they brought back the Chevelle SS... i had a 68...would it "be the same"? no. does that make it "not deserving"? no.

Seems some of the auto enthusiasts have blinders on when it comes to yesterday vs today......... especially in technology...and design...

This car is a Manaro in pontiac clothing... and the Manaro is a very well respected car...

its just not caught on yet......and if i doesnt...oh well...

i know i like it........and the bottom line to me at my age is,...thats all that counts.

I don't think it is about being stuck in the past as you are suggesting. For instance, the fourth gen f-body is nothing like the 1st or 2nd gens. Personally, I like the 1st and 2nd gens a lot more(Pontiac power and muscle car brutality), but the fourth gen is definitely an American muscle car and it has its place. The Monaro may be a well respected car in its native county, and it may be a really nice car; but it is an import and it is not a traditional American muscle car new gen or otherwise. It is, however, a improperly badged import...pure and simple. Since the car is not accepted, prepare for it to receive criticism. You bought a car that is criticized...it is unfortunate, but that is the way it is. If you like it, sure, that is what counts; but a lot of people don't and they will be sure to voice their opinion. Looking at DC, the four door Charger brought with it a lot of disappointment; but it will do much much much better then the GTO because it still has the muscle car edge with utility built into it.

Oh more thing, the person who started this thread; asked us what we think. Well, this is what a lot of people think about this car.

[wolfdogs]

Useless in the sense that it is not a really practical sports car, and it is not a practical family car/grocery getter. WTF is it? A grocery getter with a big motor that handles well and gets 12 mpg? Give me a break. It is less practical (more useless) than the chevy SSR. That is what I mean by useless.

My camaro is almost ten years old man, and it's got a tired old LT1. See me next summer and we'll see who walks who, who gets better gas, who outhandles, and who looks better going down the road, shine aside You do have one thing on the camaro... We don't see as many GTO's on the road as we do Camaro's. Guess I'm not too alone in the way I think

what is it? its high performance muscle car, with a roomy comfortable back seat thats just hard to get into..unlike the f body...that unless you under 3 foot tall, you cant sit in the back seat.......


what is a grocery getter? do you get groceries in you camaro? bet you have... i dont get groceries in my gto..nobody eats, drinks, smokes, or f@rts in my gto........didnt in my CompTA but once.........but still, what does that mean? a car is what you make of it. there are f bodies, corvettes, 75,000 dollar bmw's that look like crap, have not been taken care of, and are used and abused for commuting and shopping and taking dogs to the vet.......... does that make them ALL the same?

of course there are more camaro's on the road than gto's.........they've been making them since 1967.......non stop...... and 4th gens since 1994..thats 11 years... like any model, it takes time for a car , new, renovated, or whatever...to catch on.. personally...im glad i dont see to many...that makes mine more special.........

"who gets better gas"? i could give a rats petutie about that... i didnt buy my car for gas mileage... i put an average of 7k miles on my "hobbie" car a year.......... now, my real "grocery getter...and rescue and everything vehicle..." thats different...

a car is what you make it........................

[markd79ta]

Well, it's meant to be profitable as limited production. Thanks to Monaro, most of the fixed costs of production have already been taken care of. Now that the 05's are out, the GTO looks to be selling as predicted. Heck, sales are up over 70% when compared to this time last year.

On the production run, it looks like it should be around through 2009. Holden has stated that Monaro is a necessity for them. The platform will remain in production, so why not a GTO?

Apparently the ONLY thing people are turned off at is the looks, because it's hard to argue from a performance standpoint. Hopefully they'll do an exterior redesign in 2007 to keep it fresh.

That would be shameful if they continue the GTO on the Monaro platform until 2009. If GM had half a brain, they would have a platform that could be shared between the Monte, GTO, Chevelle, and Grand National designed and built here in the States. Oh well, by the time they figure that out, the window of time will have passed. Typical GM...'a day late and a dollar short'.

[wolfdogs]

I don't think it is about being stuck in the past as you are suggesting. For instance, the fourth gen f-body is nothing like the 1st or 2nd gens. Personally, I like the 1st and 2nd gens a lot more(Pontiac power and muscle car brutality), but the fourth gen is definitely an American muscle car and it has its place. The Monaro may be a well respected car in its native county, and it may be a really nice car; but it is an import and it is not a traditional American muscle car new gen or otherwise. It is, however, a improperly badged import...pure and simple. Since the car is not accepted, prepare for it to receive criticism. You bought a car that is criticized...it is unfortunate, but that is the way it is. If you like it, sure, that is what counts; but a lot of people don't and they will be sure to voice their opinion. Looking at DC, the four door Charger brought with it a lot of disappointment; but it will do much much much better then the GTO because it still has the muscle car edge with utility built into it.

Oh more thing, the person who started this thread; asked us what we think. Well, this is what a lot of people think about this car.

actually, in my hard core f body days, clubs, Pontiac Nationals, etc... there was alot of enthusiasum about bringing the Manaro to the U.S. by f body enthusiasts.... many of my hard core f body friends have bought them too (gto's...) some still have one or more of thier f bodies as well...

crittisize all you want....... i bought the car for me.........with my money........ and i like it and if you dont.........

i could pick your cast iron solid axle dinnasour apart but i won't............

cause i like them too........LOL

LOL

[markd79ta]

the "gto" is a large muscle car of the past.....a cast iron beamoth.......

look at the old grand prix and the new one........

times changed...

There is one huge flaw with this argument. The GTO is a legend, an icon, the start of the muscle car era, a demon at the 60s drag strips...it is the definition of the American Muscle Car and something not to be messed with. Who cares about the Grand Prix of old? ...Really, who cares?

The GTO is far more then a warmed over import. GM could put the LS7 under the hood with a blower, but it would still be a Monaro. The hp rating of the engine doesn't make the car. Anybody can make a turd fast...you see a lot of them at the raceways (I remember seeing a 9 second Chevy Citation Wagon at SIR).

[markd79ta]

crittisize all you want....... i bought the car for me.........with my money........ and i like it and if you dont.........

Isn't that the point? This person asked us about what we (all of us) thought. You like it, which is fine; a lot of us don't. Isn't it proper for him to know all of our points of view and why? Since the car isn't doing too hot, I think our points are substantiated and valid.

I am sorry that your car that you spent "your" money on is the subject of so much controversy, but hey you accepted that controversy when you signed on the dotted line. If you like it that much then you shouldn't feel the need to get so defensive when we discuss the reasons why we don't.