The Goat

[N20LT4Bird]

Useless in the sense that it is not a really practical sports car, and it is not a practical family car/grocery getter. WTF is it? A grocery getter with a big motor that handles well and gets 12 mpg? Give me a break. It is less practical (more useless) than the chevy SSR. That is what I mean by useless.

My camaro is almost ten years old man, and it's got a tired old LT1. See me next summer and we'll see who walks who, who gets better gas, who outhandles, and who looks better going down the road, shine aside You do have one thing on the camaro... We don't see as many GTO's on the road as we do Camaro's. Guess I'm not too alone in the way I think

Raro, I hate to be the barer of bad news, but unless you have more mods than what youre showing in your sig, Woflie's GTO is gonna eat your peanut butter and jelly. Ive only driven the 04, but that WILL outrun an LT1....never mind the 05. The 05 will be a good match against all but the fastest factory freak LS1 WS6's and SS's........with the IRS, it will outhandle your camaro and its solid rear axle.

I own a 69 GTO and I would be happy to have an 05 sitting next to it in the garage. Is it all that I had hoped for as a retro machine? No, but its still one hell of a car......and it puts the new Crustang GT to shame in the performance categories. The new Hemi charger wont touch it either.....the GTO is still king of the streets.....and thats what matters. I cant believe, we, as GM guys are complaining about a rear wheel drive, IRS, LS2, 400+HP, muscle car! What the heck is wrong here? Just because its imported? HELLOOOO! Everything you see on the roads now a days is at least partially imported from countries doing it cheaper....this isnt the 60's. Even if it was.....what was the original GTO...before the days of "The Judge"? Its was a freakin tempest - a family car that John Delorean stuffed a 389 with a tri-power in. It wasnt flashy. It looked like everything else on the street, but would suck your headlights out at the stop light......same thing with the new GTO. People who say it doesnt match up to the original GTO, dont know what the original was all about.

[SteveH95Formula]

The F-body was imported from Canada. So there!!!
We are all driving imports AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

[Joe K. 99 Zeee!!]

Who cares about the Grand Prix of old? ...Really, who cares?

Well...these discussions tend to go on forever. Nobody is going to change their opinion. It's definitley a controversial car. As for the Grand Prix argument, I always like to pull out pictures...This '65 GTO looks very much like the older Grand Prix. I believe it's reputation back then was based as much on the car culture of the time as much as it was on the car's performance. Looks wise, I don't think it stood out quite as much as others would believe.

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...-gto-1965c.jpg

http://www.linkers.co.uk/Autos/00004...0Tri-Power.JPG

[alenstein]

Anyone seen Jay lately?

[Performin Norman]

Isn't that the point? This person asked us about what we (all of us) thought. You like it, which is fine; a lot of us don't. Isn't it proper for him to know all of our points of view and why? Since the car isn't doing too hot, I think our points are substantiated and valid.

I am sorry that your car that you spent "your" money on is the subject of so much controversy, but hey you accepted that controversy when you signed on the dotted line. If you like it that much then you shouldn't feel the need to get so defensive when we discuss the reasons why we don't.

Nicely said. I agree.

[N20LT4Bird]

Well...these discussions tend to go on forever. Nobody is going to change their opinion. It's definitley a controversial car. As for the Grand Prix argument, I always like to pull out pictures...This '65 GTO looks very much like the older Grand Prix. I believe it's reputation back then was based as much on the car culture of the time as much as it was on the car's performance. Looks wise, I don't think it stood out quite as much as others would believe.

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...-gto-1965c.jpg

http://www.linkers.co.uk/Autos/00004...0Tri-Power.JPG

Bingo. They are Pontiacs. They always have looked similiar from model to model. The GTO didnt stick out like a ferrari until the Judge came around and it had a flashy paint job, decals and spoiler.

As far as performance, the GTO's reputation came from the fact that it was FAST, by even today's standards. My regular, base 400/400 combo runs low 14's...stock. If you had a RAIV Judge with a 4-speed, it would run low 13's stock. Add a set of slicks (and maybe headers) and you'd be in the 12's.....thats still fast by todays standards.

[markd79ta]

Bingo. They are Pontiacs. They always have looked similiar from model to model. The GTO didnt stick out like a ferrari until the Judge came around and it had a flashy paint job, decals and spoiler.

As far as performance, the GTO's reputation came from the fact that it was FAST, by even today's standards. My regular, base 400/400 combo runs low 14's...stock. If you had a RAIV Judge with a 4-speed, it would run low 13's stock. Add a set of slicks (and maybe headers) and you'd be in the 12's.....thats still fast by todays standards.

In response to a couple of points made regarding the old one's looks, global market, etc.

Sure, the Grand Prix morphed into a FWD family car, but do we want that as a GTO? My friend's '65 Viper Red GTO with the blower sticking out of the hood screams American Muscle Car...a nice reminder of the gassers from the past. For their time, they were pretty radical...remember, they were the very first. The 4th Gen f-body, especially with the Ram Air Hoods screams American Muscle Car. The new Mustang screams American Muscle Car. The new Charger, even as a completely different looking four door, screams American Muscle Car. All of these cars have a distinct American flavor and aggressiveness that sets them apart. People have different tastes, but there is a common theme here. Regardless if the car is old iron or a new gen techno box, does it pass the American Muscle Car test? Can the intended audience afford them such as the initial market of the GTO? A few people have eluded to global car production. There is a big difference between a car engineered in the states for a market here and assembled in Canada in comparison to an outdated car designed and built for an Australian market then rebadged as a so-called American muscle car. Who knows, maybe the muscle car era is indeed dead. Maybe the Vette and Mustang are the only true survivors that can stand the test of time. If the era is dead, then let those cars RIP. If they want to bring something new to market then call it something different.

Following the GTO model...maybe we can throw a couple of hood scoops on this, release it in '07 and call it a 50th anniversary Firebird Convertible.
http://www.saabusa.com/saabjsp/93c/index.jsp Or, we can just contract with Nissan and rebadge the 350Z as a Camaro.

...maybe we can badge this as the new Chevy Bel Air http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/...ry?vehicleid=4
as a 50 anniversary homage to the famed '57 Chevy...yep, that would be the ticket.

[wolfdogs]

Raro, I hate to be the barer of bad news, but unless you have more mods than what youre showing in your sig, Woflie's GTO is gonna eat your peanut butter and jelly. Ive only driven the 04, but that WILL outrun an LT1....never mind the 05. The 05 will be a good match against all but the fastest factory freak LS1 WS6's and SS's........with the IRS, it will outhandle your camaro and its solid rear axle.

I own a 69 GTO and I would be happy to have an 05 sitting next to it in the garage. Is it all that I had hoped for as a retro machine? No, but its still one hell of a car......and it puts the new Crustang GT to shame in the performance categories. The new Hemi charger wont touch it either.....the GTO is still king of the streets.....and thats what matters. I cant believe, we, as GM guys are complaining about a rear wheel drive, IRS, LS2, 400+HP, muscle car! What the heck is wrong here? Just because its imported? HELLOOOO! Everything you see on the roads now a days is at least partially imported from countries doing it cheaper....this isnt the 60's. Even if it was.....what was the original GTO...before the days of "The Judge"? Its was a freakin tempest - a family car that John Delorean stuffed a 389 with a tri-power in. It wasnt flashy. It looked like everything else on the street, but would suck your headlights out at the stop light......same thing with the new GTO. People who say it doesnt match up to the original GTO, dont know what the original was all about.

funny you mentioned what you did in your last sentence....to quote a another new gto owner:

"So many people keep making the comment "it's not a true GTO", but they don't have a clue what a GTO was. Of all the nameplates of GM, the GTO has the least "model identification" - it was all over the place because it spent most of it's life as a package on other cars (Lemans, Tempest, even a Nova body!) which I'm sure you know). It's more an idea than a car. If anything, the GTO of today, with true Euro design and American V8, is closer to the idea of the GTO than the original..."

even though the new gto is "imported"..its made by a gm owned facility ...Holden is an arm under gm


All in all, this has been a good discussion...and everyone has been very cool, thats what makes this forum the best

we are all friends here, doesnt matter what year your car is, who's is the fastest, the newest, or whatever.....


only the shinyest......................

[Steel2686]

I still have to go with my 80's rebadging point. The four cylinder Nova GM released sold pretty well. Where was the out? The Plymouth Duster from the 80's had a four cylinder. Also sold pretty well. No boycotts heard of.

My point is this... If anyone thinks GM should have released the new GTO under a different name and it would have sold much better, I'll have to disagree. I stand behind giving GM credit for at least backing the name with a more than respectable powerplant.

I believe N20LT4Bird had one of the best points... We definitely should not be arguing over a V-8 powered American car. Some will like it's suttle styling, some will not. However, I don't think anyone here would be able to hold back a grin when behind the wheel.

[N20LT4Bird]

Mark, Monero is a division of GM...a little different from a Nissan. And the car is hardly outdated....you make it sound like they put a TPI and a 2004R in there....the LS2 and IRS....T56.....not outdated...yet.

[wolfdogs]

Isn't that the point? This person asked us about what we (all of us) thought. You like it, which is fine; a lot of us don't. Isn't it proper for him to know all of our points of view and why? Since the car isn't doing too hot, I think our points are substantiated and valid.

I am sorry that your car that you spent "your" money on is the subject of so much controversy, but hey you accepted that controversy when you signed on the dotted line. If you like it that much then you shouldn't feel the need to get so defensive when we discuss the reasons why we don't.

"so defensive"........... scuse me..but I think its my right to "counter your counter points"........ isn't that what an intellegent debate is supposed to be about......... I could say the same about your "agressive position"...but it's not... its your "position" on the car.......

I disagree....I think I have every right to speak up about the attributes and my take on the car........my first new car with my own money was a brand new 327cu in. 1967 Camaro.......... and my whole career has been in the automotive field, everything from service manager, to zone service rep, to govt. automotive engineer....tire testing, vehicle testing, vehicle standards, etc etc.... 35 years worth......... I think I just might have that "little urge" to speak out about the salient characteristics of enthusiasts cars.......

" " these = "funny...as in naah nah nah....as in being "happy...."... I sense some tension on your part..........

[markd79ta]

People who say it doesnt match up to the original GTO, dont know what the original was all about.

Not necessarily true. I am very knowledgeable about the GTO performance package, the initial test market, the Tempest, the 389, etc. etc. I don't think it is about splitting hairs regarding what platform & body the GTO or the sister Malibu/Chevelle used in the 60s; it is about what the name represents, every Chevelle, f-body, Road Runner, Charger, Cuda, etc. etc. followed in the '63 Pontiac GTO's footsteps...heck you can even trace back to Pontiac's hemi program, before it was track banned, as the roots of the GTO. Personally, the Monaro import just doesn't cut it. GM didn't think it was necessary to build these cars over the past 10 years so they had nothing to use as a platform, they scrambled, they pulled the Monaro out of their hat, and we have this thing. Some people will accept it, some people won't, the sales speak volumes.

[PRPLHZE]

I love mine... 20-23 mpg under normal driving conditions and around 17 with my foot in it... I think GM did very well with this car, and enjoy my SEG everytime I sit behind the wheel... If you havent driven one, you truely dont know what you are missing. The car sells itself just in one little test drive..!

[FroSSty]

I love the GTO...I would love people to think I was driving a Grand Prix only to realize that they were just wasted by "that bland ugly car that everybody hates"!!!

I really can't believe that people are "complaining" about this car. The whole point of the early muscle cars were to blend in. Blend in and then dust you.

oh yeah, and it would be a cold day in hades before I bought a Ford...

But then again, I LOVE a sleeper. my .02

[N20LT4Bird]

Not necessarily true. I am very knowledgeable about the GTO performance package, the initial test market, the Tempest, the 389, etc. etc. I don't think it is about splitting hairs regarding what platform & body the GTO or the sister Malibu/Chevelle used in the 60s; it is about what the name represents, every Chevelle, f-body, Road Runner, Charger, Cuda, etc. etc. followed in the '63 Pontiac GTO's footsteps...heck you can even trace back to Pontiac's hemi program, before it was track banned, as the roots of the GTO. Personally, the Monaro import just doesn't cut it. GM didn't think it was necessary to build these cars over the past 10 years so they had nothing to use as a platform, they scrambled, they pulled the Monaro out of their hat, and we have this thing. Some people will accept it, some people won't, the sales speak volumes.

I can respect that position....Ive talked to many Pontiac guys with your position. I just think we are shooting ourselves in the foot, because we dont have an f-body anymore......besides the GTO, its just the Corvette; and I know I'll probably never afford one of those.....if we poo poo the Goat, we may be left with nothing but the vette.