Engine rebuild...need ideas

[N20LT4Bird]

I wouldnt do the Jegs engine. Its a lot of money AND you are not doing anything for the value of your car. I would try to find the 400 through a private individual. Look for one in relatively good shape needing a freshening maybe a set of pistons, rings gaskets etc. As long as you have a good rotating assembly and heads your good to go. Look for one that is relatively complete - you have a lot of parts that will swap over from the 350 - alternator, PS, maybe intake, maybe carb, etc....Take a look on ebay and local classifieds. I found my 400 through a junk yard, but dont count on that. You want an engine made from 1967 - 1970 and maybe up to 1972. Try to find a 1970 to match your car. Date codes are stamped next to the distributor hole - easily read, 70 = 1970. You also want to find an engine with a good set of heads - the 400 blocks dont make much difference - the power is in the heads. Search online for "Pontiac head casting numbers". You want to know what head combos made good power. For example a Pontiac 400 with number 16 heads made 350 horsepower. You need to do the research; there are many good heads out there and many bad heads. Its just a matter of knowing which heads to look for. Like I said, I think you should be able to come up with a good rebuildable engine for around $300 - maybe $400. I wouldnt pay much more than that if it needs a rebuild.

[markd79ta]

I take it from your member name that this Firebird is a Formula model with the Ram-Air hood. I would definitely drop a big block 400 in it...you won't be disappointed. They have a totally different feel then the small blocks...the Pontiac 400 has a very unique sound to it...you would love it. It is one serious torque monster too...developing most of it torque between 2,000 and 3,500rpms. If you go this route, you can buy the motor, add the carb & such in time, and then have it all installed. It would be a good way to go...I would scrap the 350 idea in that car...it is an awesome car ('70-'73s were incredible cars!) You can then sell the 350 and get a couple hundred back.

Here is a builder:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...473863721&rd=1

Here is one that has been rebuilt:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...474512683&rd=1

[70formula400]

"Markd79TA" You're right...I do have the 70' Formula 400, with the dual snorkel ram air hood.

You put those 2 links on ur post for me to check out, one of them is a rebuildable 400 from a 1972 Grand Prix, and the other is a rebuilt 400 from a 1978 Trans Am...so if I wanted a 400 for my car it wouldn't necessarily need to be a 400 that was previously in a Firebird?

[markd79ta]

Originally posted by 70formula400
"Markd79TA" You're right...I do have the 70' Formula 400, with the dual snorkel ram air hood.

You put those 2 links on ur post for me to check out, one of them is a rebuildable 400 from a 1972 Grand Prix, and the other is a rebuilt 400 from a 1978 Trans Am...so if I wanted a 400 for my car it wouldn't necessarily need to be a 400 that was previously in a Firebird?

You can put any Pontiac 400 in it. There were several iterations of the 400 from '67 to '79. The early RA motors were awesome, but they had a really high compression ratio 11:1...so you would need to find race fuel or de-tune it. The mid 70's 400s were a little on the under-built side with low compression (7.5:1) and restrictive heads. The '77 - '79 400 W72s were awesome again...they had the 8x heads...sources very...but they came with approx 8.5:1 pistons...deck the heads, change the cam, and its a screamer. I don't know if you had the RA III or RA IV engine in your formula originally, probably the RA III (330hp)...those would be rather pricey. There are a few internet sites where you kind find the low-down on the Pontiac motors.

[70formula400]

I was mainly thinking about possibly getting one of the Jegs performance GM 350's because I can't seem to find much information on 400's. And where I could get a 400 engine, I have about $4,000 that I can spend on the engine. Would $4,000 be enough to get a 400 in my car with at least 330 HP? I can't seem to find a private party selling one, or a rebuildable one or anything.

[markd79ta]

Originally posted by 70formula400
I was mainly thinking about possibly getting one of the Jegs performance GM 350's because I can't seem to find much information on 400's. And where I could get a 400 engine, I have about $4,000 that I can spend on the engine. Would $4,000 be enough to get a 400 in my car with at least 330 HP? I can't seem to find a private party selling one, or a rebuildable one or anything.

If you find one with the right heads, you should be well into the 400hp range with the 400 for under 4k. I am guessing about 3k for the engine and $800-$900 for the install...probably less. I will try to dig up some info. for you, and send it to you in the next day or two.

[N20LT4Bird]

4000 is enough to make one nice Pontiac 400! I have less than half that into my GTO motor. Its basicly stock, but it runs pretty well - 14.0 @ 99mph. Now, the ebay links are a good start, but like i said, PAY ATTENTION TO THE HEADS! The heads on the 72 motor were not so good (250 HP). THe 78 motor, the guy didnt say what heads he has on it. If there is one thing you have to be sure of to make good power is the heads. I have 62 heads on my GTO - 350 HP. Heres some examples of good heads:

12=330/350 HP
13=330/350 HP
614= RAIV = 370 HP - very expensive
62 RAIII = 350 HP
16=350 HP
48=330 HP

There are other good castings. If you are looking at something and want to PM me, I will tell you what kind of heads they are.
I would stick with a late 60's 400 head with at 68-72 cc chambers. This will put your compression ratio at around 10:1. This is what I am running and I run 93 octane pump gas. Runs fine. If you go with a later style head, you are dropping into 7.5:1 - 8.5:1 compression and your power isnt going to be where you want it.

The other option, which may be good for you considering the $$ you want to spend is the new edelbrock aluminum heads for the Pontiac. THey are supposed to be AWESOME, but your gonna drop 1800 on the set.

[70formula400]

Hey, I found this engine for sale...tell me what you think, I tried sending it in a PM to you N20LT4BIRD, but it was too long.
Here is the information on the engine:
The '71 YS 400 I have is a basic 400 rebuild. Has been bored & honed .030, new pistons & rings, rods rebuilt & bottom end balanced. All new bearings, races, seals. Engine has zero miles on it, it was decided the car was going to need too much work to restore (had heavy frame damage) & owner has since changed his mind on the project & has asked me to process the car (I was hired to propperly rebuild the front suspension, detail the underhood, prep & r/r the engine, & provide select restoration services & parts.

Stock this engine was rated at:
300 gross hp @ 4800 rpm
400 lbs of torque @ 3200 rpm.

With the slight overbore, it should make a little more compression, but this engine is well suited for use with 87-89 octane fuel & moderate gearing. The cam & lifters in it are new, & I will probably replace with a new "S" grind RAIII cam, if someone wants a slightly larger cam. I also can offer the option (for 135) of replacing the oem rockers & new rocker nuts with a new set of Comp 1.52 roller tips & polylocks. These Comp roller tips were used in dyno runs on an E-headed 462 I had built for a customer, & we have since gone to a large solid cam & a set of Crower stainless full rockers for the E-headed 462. If doing so, i would have to order another set of poly-locks...no problem.

Have not advertised this engine, but if it does not sell as a longblock or intake or carb down, I will prob remove the "96" heads, & heavily port them, & use them on a 462 or 467. The shortblock would then be sold off for 850 or so. The heads gone through are easily worth 400, so by asking 1100, one is getting a pkg deal. I'm located in OK, & can ship from OKC or Dallas. In past deals with several folks from CA & AZ, I have often met them in Amarillo, as I often have business that way.

Sincerely,
Roger

What do you think about that engine? He said it's 300 HP stock...with 96 heads, is this correct? Let me know what you think about the engine, and if you have any suggestions for my 1970 firebird as far as if this engine would be good for my car or not, thanks...Dan

[N20LT4Bird]

Assuming he did a nice job on the rebuild, its worth 1100 all day long. SOunds like a good deal. The 96 heads on a 400 are indeed rated at 300 HP. Its NOT THE BEST set of heads, but NOT BAD EITHER. I would have him include the RAIII cam and the roller rockers. Thats a nice street cam. If you got the engine for the 1100 plus 135 for the rockers and then a few hundred for shipping, you would still have enough in your budget for the edelbrock heads if you wanted more power down the road. With the edelbrock heads, RAIII cam, nice intake and carb - youd have a 450 horse engine, easy. Id say that sounds like good deal. It is MILES above starting with that 350. Make sure you get some kind of guarantee that it will start up and run with no major problems. You always have the potential for problems if someone else is doing the work.

[70formula400]

Alright thanks, I'll keep you posted on what's going on. What's your name by the way? It's just easier to call you by your name instead of N20LT4BIRD, everytime I want to ask you something.
-Dan-

[70formula400]

I sent the guy a PM, and he says it's still for sale. He says I can call him up and we can talk about it on the phone if I want. What are some of the things I should make sure he tells me about the engine or I should ask him about the engine?

Also, I'm not sure if I have a TH-350 or 400 tranny, how do I tell? and would his 71' 400 YS code engine fit on both the TH-350 or 400 tranny?

[N20LT4Bird]

My name is Sean.......

A Pontiac bell housing is a Pontiac bellhousing. If you have a Pontiac 350 in there now, the 400 will fit in its place - no modification necessary.

The TH400 is longer than the TH350.....thats how I tell them apart. I dont know how to tell you to inspect, other than if there is a kickdown CABLE attached to the carb that runs to the tranny, its a TH350. If not, its a TH400. Either one will work as long as its a Pontiac engine in there now.

As far as the phone call, I would just make sure he is willing to give you a guarantee that is starts and runs - no leaks, no knocks, etc.... Other than that, just ask him about the Ram Air III cam install and the roller rockers. Ask him what machine work has been done. Crank ground?? Block and heads mAgnafluxed? Heads decked? Etc..... If it sounds like he did a nice job, it sounds like a good deal.

[70formula400]

Originally posted by N20LT4Bird
As far as the phone call, I would just make sure he is willing to give you a guarantee that is starts and runs - no leaks, no knocks, etc.... Other than that, just ask him about the Ram Air III cam install and the roller rockers. Ask him what machine work has been done. Crank ground?? Block and heads mAgnafluxed? Heads decked? Etc..... If it sounds like he did a nice job, it sounds like a good deal.

What kind of guarantee are you talking about? Like have it in writing? that the engine will start up and run perfectly fine with no leaks or knocks or anything like that?

What does crank ground mean? Block and heads magnafluxed? heads decked?

[N20LT4Bird]

I would just have him agree to it in email or something. SOme kind of assurance that your not getting a boat anchor. I suppose if worse comes to worse, you fix it if there is a problem, but its worth a shot to see if he will guarantee his work.

Crank ground = was the crank machined to repair grooves on the journal surfaces from worn bearings

Magnaflux = check block and heads for cracks

Heads decked= resurfaced to compensate for warpage or to raise compression ratio

[70formula400]

Hey guys, I am looking for a motor for my car and I found a guy who is selling his. I'm going to copy and paste what he wrote me about the motor and I want to know what you guys think...if I should take him up on it and if it sounds like he did a good job...I will put my questions in (parantheses) throughout what he wrote so you can distinguish my writing from his...



Hello,

On the '71 400 YS, the machine work & asm was performed little over 2 years ago. On this engine, the customer had contracted me to replace the engine in his car after doing quite a bit of front suspension work & some detailing under the hood.

The engine is not a 350 horse RA 4 cammed, Rhoads lifter equipped 9.3-1 406 crate engine (longblock) like my Pontiac engine builder buddy builds & sells outright for $2800 (This confuses me...he tells me that the engine is NOT 350 HP like his friends engine? And he also says something about it being a 406 crate engine...is he talking about his friends or his engine? because if I recall Pontiac doesn't have a 406 engine.)

Instead, this 400 is a stock rebuilt 406 (he calls it a 400 motor...but then he says its a stock rebuilt 406 motor???) using desirable year heads (96's) & matching YS coded 400 block. In stock condition, this version of 400 bbl engine made 300 gross hp & ran on 87-89 octane regular fuel. As the engine has been bored, there may be a slight increase in compression ratio, but I have not measured & ck'ed it.

Aftermarket parts... On such an engine, or even on one of Len's 9.3-1 crate engines, there is no extra hp to be gained by going to a Performer intake (actually slighly less flow than stock early 4 bbl intake) or a $200-400 aftermarket carb. (Does this mean that I wouldn't be able to get any performance parts for it to add more power because its already maxed out or what?) In actuality one usually is just shooting themselves in the foot when going to the Edelbrock 1407 carbs, cheap Demons, or cheap Holleys. Have dealt with many of the associated problems with before mentioned carbs & honestly I cannot recommend them. The stock '67-72 Pontiac 4bbl intakes have been proven to be better flow wise than the regular Performer intake, & as we were using one of the "good" early Pontiac Q-jets (professionally rebuilt), there was no reason to go with lesser performing new aftermarket carb.

Often times on Pontiac builds, I will install a repro RAIII S grind cam or other owner picked new cam & new lifters, as I have a degree wheel & can propperly degree the cam in. Going with a RAIII cam, is going to add to the price of the longblock, the price of the cam & shipping. If such is the case, will throw in my labor to propperly install. On the Comp roller tip rockers that came off the 462 e-headed engine, they have under 45 minutes break-in time & 6 dyno pulls on them. I personally like using polylocks & would install these barely run rollertip rockers with new polylocks after cam swap. Rocker nut adjustment is done cold, & & on occasion, will have to readjust a rocker upon initial fire-up. (What does he mean by having to readjust rocker upon initial fireup??) Ordering a set of polylocks & going with the Comp roller tips, will add $135. Swapping cams will cost $70-110, depending on which brand of new RAII cam.

Warranty. Will warranty the YS 400 to be rebuilt, not a cheapy backyard re-ring special that someone slammed together. My customer spent close to 1500 on the machinework, internal engine parts, & assembly & then spent another 500 with me in R & R, including replacing the oilpan on the engine with one that was in nicer shape, & then the entire engine was painted the correct '71-early 73 shade of Pontiac blue. For $1100 for a rebuilt longblock, someone will be getting a deal. The rods have been resized & are not going to knock. Leaks, there should be no oil leaks, the rear main seal was properly installed. Every once in a blue moon, will install a rebuilt engine & get a slight oil leak, usually due to improper oil pan seal, this is withing the realm of possibility, but should not be the case.

Magnafluxing. Block & heads were torn down vatted & magged before machinework.

Crank undersize, I'm willing to bet it's 10-10, (what does 10-10 mean?) & I can remove the pan & a maincap & rod bearing cap & double ck the new bearing sizes, then propperly reinstall & retorque. The crank was propperly turned, but since this engine has been on the extra stand, I've torn down several dozen Pontiac engines & assembled 5 or 6 engines, so cannot remember exact crank undersize w/o double ck'ing.

(Okay guys, that's it...he wants $1,100 for the engine...tell me what you think I should do)