NFB Why people soup up an econobox

[Christopherrr]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6
Brandon, have fun getting banned. And just for the record, I have observed 29 mpg highway cruising at 1700 RPMs.

Humm...I've seen 28 in mixed driving myself...let see, double of the horsepower, triple the displacement, more than double the torque, and about the same MPG of mixed driving as a B18C5.

If you wanna break it down...LS1's are better.

The import scene is nothing more than little punks that can't afford a real machine...so they try to make their cars fast and end up being jokes. I know...MY BEST FRIEND WAS ONE OF THEM.

There are some real performance import machines, but name one that isn't boosted??? You can't can you??? Supra? Turbo charged. WRX? EVO? RX7? MR2? 300ZX? Skyline??? naaa....

NSX? A JOKE AT $90+
350Z? Don't except much if you don't BOOST it

Brandon you never even been in a F-body before have you? It's two different worlds dude...it's not even worth comparing.

[TraceZ]

Originally posted by Joe 1320
That depends on your way of thinking. If you are going to take 3 friends with you on a road trip, the Camaro is a better car for that job. Ditto for insurance and replacement parts cost. So depending on how you think, yes you can.

Actually, Joe hit the nail on the head. The family is exactly why I got the Z instead of a Vette. I really like Vettes, but most of the driving I do is with my family and it wouldnt make sense to have a 2 seater. I will someday have one, in addition to the Z.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by LimTeng99TransAm
Humm...I've seen 28 in mixed driving myself...let see, double of the horsepower, triple the displacement, more than double the torque, and about the same MPG of mixed driving as a B18C5.

If you wanna break it down...LS1's are better.

The import scene is nothing more than little punks that can't afford a real machine...so they try to make their cars fast and end up being jokes. I know...MY BEST FRIEND WAS ONE OF THEM.

There are some real performance import machines, but name one that isn't boosted??? You can't can you??? Supra? Turbo charged. WRX? EVO? RX7? MR2? 300ZX? Skyline??? naaa....

NSX? A JOKE AT $90+
350Z? Don't except much if you don't BOOST it

Brandon you never even been in a F-body before have you? It's two different worlds dude...it's not even worth comparing.

I don't know why I constantly fight this battle, no one ever seems to listen...

Everything you just said about "let's see the imports do it N/A" could be turned right around on the domestics... "let's see them do it without all that displacement."

It comes down to different ways to build power... and people on both sides are equally as intolerant towards each other when they do not need to be. A fast car is fun... just enjoy it.

No, everyone who supes up a 4-banger is not a "little punk".

[Brandon]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6
I don't know why I constantly fight this battle, no one ever seems to listen...

Everything you just said about "let's see the imports do it N/A" could be turned right around on the domestics... "let's see them do it without all that displacement."

It comes down to different ways to build power... and people on both sides are equally as intolerant towards each other when they do not need to be. A fast car is fun... just enjoy it.

No, everyone who supes up a 4-banger is not a "little punk".

I agree.

BTW LimTeng99TransAm I have been in an f-body before, and I love them.

[Christopherrr]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6
No, everyone who supes up a 4-banger is not a "little punk".

You're right Jay...

We just need to all get a long......























.....except for those little punks that think they can beat me in a D16 Civic!!!! Who do they think they are??? Punks I tell you...





















.....just kidding. I don't mean to step on anyone's pumas...all to their own. I still love ya though...you too brandon. Forgot to welcome you to the board...sooo ahh, WELCOME ABOARD.

[Brandon]

haha thanks

[markd79ta]

Originally posted by Brandon
Your wrong dude. An LT1 camaro gets like 17 city and 25 highway. While a b18c5 civic/teg gets 25 city and 31 highway. BTW 1800 would be a stupid rpm to try and get good gas mileage. Thats gonna give you worse mileage that if you cruised at 2500-3000. What is this "more vibrations and heat" stuff about? You are just trying to add stupid little things to make it sound like you are right.

So in the long run it is more effecient.

Yeah and muscle cars have also been around for 40 years.

An LT1 can cruise pretty well at 1800rpm in 6th gear due to the low RPM torque it produces something Asian imports usually don't have thus you run the compact imports at higher RPMs. The EPA tested 17/25 you quoted is the auto not the 6speed; the 6 speed does 18/27 or 18/28...I can look at my manufacturers sticker later tonight. Shoot the new 400hp Vette does 18/28...not too bad for this much power out of a stock car! The best gas mileage my Trans Am ever produced was 31mpg driving from Olympia, Wa to Colorado Springs, CO when it was new. The most impressive gas mileage was 25mpg going from Fort Collins, CO to Las Vegas time/distance averaging over 90mph which included the trip over the Rockies. When I commuted 72 miles one way from rural Colorado into downtown rush-hour traffic in Denver I always got 23mpg. I may have got 6 or 7mpg more in a Civic, but we are also talking about a car with more then twice the power of a Civic, heavier, and stock 3.42 gears. My first car was an '81 Honda Accord hatchback; that pile of junk never got over 20mpg with a new carb installed from the Honda dealer. It rattled and vibrated at 60 with new tires and balancing. The tranny went out of it. The doors flew open when I made sharp turns...yep this car had less then 90,000 miles on it...what a turd. My Trans Am only has 95,000 miles on it so I can't speak to longevity on this car but I have less then $1,000 in total maintenance on it (bought it new in '97). I inherited my dad's '94 LT1 Roadmaster and that thing has 150,000 miles on it, drives like new...never a problem, and I just did its first major tune-up(plugs, wires, (opti) cap, water pump, etc.) because it was just time not because of a failure. There is a guy in my office who says similar things about the imports and trashes Chevy; however, he is the one who spends most of the time fixing the problems with his Nissan Pathfinder(I find that kinda ironic).

Muscle cars may have been around for 40 years, but there are classics from the 20s to the 2000s that are both European and American...stuff that deserves restoration and that sits in museums, peoples garages, and trailered to cars shows. The Japanese imports have been around the U.S. since the early 70s...those 70s and 80s Hondas, Datsons, and Toyotas are not being restored or built...yep, I am going to restore and soup up an '82 Civic...watch me scream down the road! I can't think of one that is a collectible...maybe the 260/280Z. I think the Mists 3000GT VR4, Stealth RT Trubo, NSX, and the '93 Supra are nice cars all of which get the same or worse gas mileage as my T/A so I fail to see the whole efficiency thing. They are not my thing, but I won't trash them...they are good cars for those that like them. We are not talking about legitimate performance cars like these...we are talking about a Honda Civic (a disposable econo car) I think the jist of the argument really resides in econo cars are econo cars, and people like us don't really understand the point of making them into something that they are not. I may trash Honda, and that is fine...it is not the kind of car I would ever want to drive nor the kind of car I would ever want any loved ones driving...it is too light and a little dangerous.

[Joe 1320]

Originally posted by Brandon
Yeah I edited out the stupid part, I was just like dont be stupid. I wasnt trying to piss him off.

The part you are missing is that I've been there, done that, got the t-shirt and returned it. I've spent way too much money making all types of vehicles go fast. There has been huge amounts of research done on the topics I covered so if you don't agree with them, that's fine. You aren't disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with other professionals.


Also, before you tell me I'm wrong, you better have the proof to back it up. As a gross example, The arguement could be made that because the my 2.5 liter Fiero and my 4.5 liter V8 deVille run almost identical times, the Fiero weighs less, has fewer cylinders, the Fiero must be more effecient. Explain to me why the deVille gets 27 mpg at 55 mph and the Fiero gets 21. Both have excellent state of tune, similar mileage, etc. You already see where this is going...... the Fiero Tachs higher at the same road speed as the deVille, that's why the fuel consuption is higher. If both engines would tach the same and at comparable throttle angles, of course the typical smaller displacement of any design should use less fuel provided it can still produce enough power to overcome weight and drag. Which can be considered more effecient? The answer completely depends on the desired outcome.

One other point that you totally missed as well. There comes a point when modding, it becomes harder and harder to return to stock. You can't tell me that you can take a full tube chassis car and return it to stock by selling the parts. You my friend, aren't even close in you estimates. I was running right under 150 mph in dare I say it...... a toyota. No way of returning it to stock once you cross certain lines.


As far as vibrations and such, unless you are from some other planet where our laws of physics don't apply, you're going to experience vibrations. 4 cylinder engines are not really the most balanced animal. Try a V4 building and running a V4 and watch what happens. There are two types of measurements. Frequency and amplitude. Frequency is the number of vibrations per second, amplitude is the strength of the vibration. As the rpms increase, vibrations per seconds increase as does amplitude. Still think I don't know what I'm talking about?

I've been around the block far too many times broh....... best not take any pot shots unless you are sure and have the facts to back it up.

BTW, next time things like "stupid" (or the like) happens to show up, there won't be any further debate.

[Joe 1320]

Originally posted by markd79ta
I may trash Honda, and that is fine...it is not the kind of car I would ever want to drive nor the kind of car I would ever want any loved ones driving...it is too light and a little dangerous.

You can't fight the laws of physics. The fact that all the other vehicles are getting heavier, makes this a problem that is getting worse by the day. Put an average SUV head to head with a Honda or similar, the Hondas' occupants are in serious trouble.

[Brandon]

Originally posted by Joe 1320
You can't fight the laws of physics. The fact that all the other vehicles are getting heavier, makes this a problem that is getting worse by the day. Put an average SUV head to head with a Honda or similar, the Hondas' occupants are in serious trouble.

Well according to quantum mechanics the suv could pass through the honda.

[wako29]

now your being a smart-***

[Joe 1320]

Originally posted by wako29
now your being a smart-***

But That was funny.

In reality though, there is a formula to determine the outcome. The end result is in a head on collision between the two, the lighter vehicle ends up instantly reversing direction, a scary thought indeed.

[TraceZ]

Originally posted by Joe 1320
But That was funny.

In reality though, there is a formula to determine the outcome. The end result is in a head on collision between the two, the lighter vehicle ends up instantly reversing direction, a scary thought indeed.

Here are some ball park numbers I just made up.
It is scarry to think of a heavy truck hit a small car head on. There is almost always a angle of deflection involved, even if very small. The large truck may slow from 60 to 5 mph in less than 10 feet, then slide to a final stop in that last 5 feet. The small car will go from 60 to -10 in that same 5 feet, then skid from the -10 to a stop more slowly.

the truck changes speed 55 mph in 10 feet.
the small car changes speed 70 mph in about 2 feet of "crumple zone"

5.5 mph per foot decelleration for the big car.
35 mph per foot decelleration for the small car.

Physics guys: can you provide a better estimate?

[Brandon]

Yeah if an inelastic collision occurred then you can use this formula M1i V1 + M2 V2i= (M1+M2) Vf
(Lets just assume that the crunch time was 1 second and the truck weighs 20 times more than the 2000lb civic.)

The deceleration for the 18-wheeler would be about 6mph/s.
The deceleration for the civic would be about 60mph/s.

BTW, I used 1 second just cause it sounded good. The actual reversal of the civic would be less than a second, but it would not be "instantaneous" Joe, haha j/k.

[Dave M]

I saw a show once where they dropped a crash test dummy from a several-hundred-foot crane into water. The dummy was rigged with accelerometers to measure the force imposed by the abrupt impact. I imagine that this impact would be similar to the sudden stopping from a high-speed crash... with the crash probably actually being worse depending on speed

Anyway, the numbers.....



Keep in mind that 1 G is the weight of gravity and what we all feel when just standing around. A tricked out car may pull 1 G on a skidpad. A fighter pilot may have to withstand up to 10 G's, or 10 times the force of gravity. This is also the limit that most humans can withstand before blacking out.


The crash test dummy recorded about 200 G's of deceleration when hitting the water fromabout 200 feet in the air. In several of the tests, body parts were ripped from the dummy on impact. Not something I'd want to experience!!