NFB: Does God have a sense of irony?

[Camaro4-2]

Funny you should bring up the 10 Commandments. I was just reading some things and talking to a few knowledgable people and this is what I found out. The commandments were set forth in the beginning as a way to get into Heaven. But God found later that they were too difficult to live by and he gave us his son to die. Now the way to the gates of Heaven are having a relationship with Jesus and accepting him as our lord and savior. Asking forgiveness is the way to Heaven.

But as far as this particular story, as brutal as it may be, it was Gods will. The reason may not be appearant to us here, but it is to the woman in Heaven or where ever she may be.

Very true. Anyone who says they live by the 10 commandments has broken them. I can only think of 1 person in history who did. And he was laid up as a sacrifice for us on Calvary.

[N20LT4Bird]

Think of a pinapple grenade. One second, it's a mass of metal. 5 seconds later, there is shrapnel all over the place. Same general concept. The big bang put simply is that the sun was once a solid mass but due to eons of spinning and continually building up speed, it caused an explosion which launched most of the solid parts of the sun hurtling through space. It spun so fast that it turned into a burning mass of gas. This would also explain why the Earth is tilted and wobbles like a top every 15,000 or so years. It was launched spinning throughout space. Also, you could apply the same question to god. How did it get there? What created it? What if one of those conspiracies were correct and we're an alien experiment? Who knows. I certainly don't.

Ive been sitting this one out for a while, but I gotta get in. This is one topic that has intrigued me since high school and I have spent a lot of time researching the creation/evolution debate. I have taken many college classes in astronomy and anthropology and read piles of books from both sides seeking for the truth in this issue. You may think I am nuts, but i lean toward the earth being much younger than described by most humanistic scientists - only 6-10,000 yrs old. This is a position held by MANY scientists - they are generally not very popular with the humanist. In college I knew the arguements well enough to debate the issues with college professors and some of them had NEVER heard the creation point of view. THere is A LOT of evidence that supports the biblical account of creation.

You bring up important issue, but the fact of the matter is that believing in the Big Bang, life by chance through macro-evolution with natural selection as the primary means of change - takes MORE faith than the creationist! These THEORIES are just plain poor (at best) yet humanistic scisntists cling to them becasue thats all they have - even though MANY of their theories oppose scientific LAW. Its real interesting and there is much more going on behind the scenes than most people know or care to investigate.

[Sean 94z28]

N20, I tried to stay out of this one too

Believing that the earth is that young does not discredit only the theory of evolution, but nearly every science (including the ones you mentioned) known to man. The only way creationists "win" any debates, is through strong arm tactics, and very little real science. So I am not going to go toe- to toe with you ( I have had enough of the - oh it's SO amazing and SO complicated how could it be anything but the almighty) on this. The bible is book with a huge fan base. But there is no more evidence that it is true, than say Harry Potter (other than the only slightly stronger resolve of religion fans ). God was created by man, not the other way around (or at least a temperamental human-like Gods). Man also created Allah, Buddha, and Ra. I claim we know a fraction of all there is to know in the universe (a small fraction at that). Of what we do know, real human scientists are a lot closer to the truth that ancient texts (or "scientists" with agenda). Real scientists don't try to prove what they believe in, the present theories for the entire scientific community to try and shoot down. The creationist movement doesn't lack strength, there is plenty of that when you CAN'T be wrong (faith). It just lacks facts.

The sadness that I see is the move of society away from science and towards superstition. Hundreds of years of progress and failure to arrive where we are. Not from the church, but from the lab.

So what is it N20 (or anybody), easy question for the faithful:

Is the bible full of true stories or metaphors? Fact or fiction? Beware of answering both.

Respectfully disagreeing (and risking a lock I am sure)
Sean

[harnickhouse]

Forever is a long time. Make the right decesion.

[TraceZ]

Forever is a long time. Make the right decesion.

So, for no reason other than fear you would believe in something?

I cannot do that. I'll be forever open to the possibility, but I cannot have complete faith in something for which there is no solid tangable proof. How can anyone with a logical, analytical mind believe whole-heartedly and intellectually in something that is completely faith based?

All you can believe in is the possibility. Asking any more than that is unrealistic. If God exists, and expects more than that he needs to provide solid undeniable proof. Come say "Hi" to us in a undenaible, obvious way.

I think most people who claim they 100% believe are simply fooling themselves, even if they deny it. Keep in mind, there are more Hindus and Budhists than there are christians. Are all those people wrong? Are they all going to hell because thay have not accepted Christ as their savior?

Everyone believes their religion is the right one just as passionately as the next guy. everyone cannot be right. Until there is proof, I remain open minded. Even if the proof is dying and being judged, I have to be honest with myself and all I can do is hope that honesty is enough.

[Camaro4-2]

N20, I tried to stay out of this one too

Believing that the earth is that young does not discredit only the theory of evolution, but nearly every science (including the ones you mentioned) known to man. The only way creationists "win" any debates, is through strong arm tactics, and very little real science. So I am not going to go toe- to toe with you ( I have had enough of the - oh it's SO amazing and SO complicated how could it be anything but the almighty) on this. The bible is book with a huge fan base. But there is no more evidence that it is true, than say Harry Potter (other than the only slightly stronger resolve of religion fans ). God was created by man, not the other way around (or at least a temperamental human-like Gods). Man also created Allah, Buddha, and Ra. I claim we know a fraction of all there is to know in the universe (a small fraction at that). Of what we do know, real human scientists are a lot closer to the truth that ancient texts (or "scientists" with agenda). Real scientists don't try to prove what they believe in, the present theories for the entire scientific community to try and shoot down. The creationist movement doesn't lack strength, there is plenty of that when you CAN'T be wrong (faith). It just lacks facts.

The sadness that I see is the move of society away from science and towards superstition. Hundreds of years of progress and failure to arrive where we are. Not from the church, but from the lab.

So what is it N20 (or anybody), easy question for the faithful:

Is the bible full of true stories or metaphors? Fact or fiction? Beware of answering both.

Respectfully disagreeing (and risking a lock I am sure)
Sean

Sean thank you for your post and nobody is going to lock you for speaking up. Thats not what we are about here. Were all mature people presenting a good discussion, maybe out of place on a car forum but its very interesting to hear all the sides of it from our peers here.

So, for no reason other than fear you would believe in something?

I cannot do that. I'll be forever open to the possibility, but I cannot have complete faith in something for which there is no solid tangable proof. How can anyone with a logical, analytical mind believe whole-heartedly and intellectually in something that is completely faith based?

All you can believe in is the possibility. Asking any more than that is unrealistic. If God exists, and expects more than that he needs to provide solid undeniable proof. Come say "Hi" to us in a undenaible, obvious way.

I think most people who claim they 100% believe are simply fooling themselves, even if they deny it. Keep in mind, there are more Hindus and Budhists than there are christians. Are all those people wrong? Are they all going to hell because thay have not accepted Christ as their savior?

Everyone believes their religion is the right one just as passionately as the next guy. everyone cannot be right. Until there is proof, I remain open minded. Even if the proof is dying and being judged, I have to be honest with myself and all I can do is hope that honesty is enough.

I've thought about this also. But didn't he already try that. Comming to earth in the form of man preforming miracles and signs of wonder and living a perfect no-sin life, God on earth, proclaiming it in not only his words but his actions, natural and supernatural...what kind of reaction did it spawn then back in times when people were RELIGIOUS? what kind of reaction would it stir up in a world that has rejected Him?

Its easy to take a stand point of saying I have no solid proff that he exsists so I choose not to follow him and accept him in my life and benefit from it. If anyone can tell me their solid proff that there is no God based on facts, the very type of facts they desire to know there IS a god i'd like to see them. I mean really, if everything was always here or came from a big bang or whatever theres no origin to explain it....just as there is no way to prove there was always a god and all these thigns came from God. Its easy to say i have no proff I dont believe, the world evolved or whatever but we have no solid proff that God doesn't exsist. If that makes any sense....People of faith are always on the defense side, but what would happen if we were stirring up the questions pinning non-believers? I think we still wouldn't have any facts but we'd have a lot of things in believers lifes that personally have proven God exsists.

[Sean 94z28]

Forever is a long time. Make the right decesion.

Enlightening! You and whoever will be in your heaven can have loads of fun giving Sean the big "I told Ya So" rasberry.

Forever at this point appears to be somewhere between 6,000 and 10,000 years, not so intimidating as "forever" in the scientist's billion+ year old universe. What does one do forever BTW? Play chess, speak with loved ones through John Edwards, place bets on who will "believe"? I can't think of doing anything forever. I am quite content with my moment on this planet.

I can change my mind at the last minute right? Regardless of anything bad I may have done, I can still get in right? Whew, I love that just in case I was wrong option (up until actual death of course, even I know you can't change your mind AFTER you find out you were wrong, duh).

The desire for Eternal life is an exclusively human traight. Having a limited time in this world is both cruel and rewarding.

Truthfully, forever is sooooo boring.

Sean

[Sean 94z28]

Sean thank you for your post and nobody is going to lock you for speaking up. Thats not what we are about here. Were all mature people presenting a good discussion, maybe out of place on a car forum but its very interesting to hear all the sides of it from our peers here.

Thank you Rico, and that is why I love this place and the people who inhabit it.

As religion becomes less and less tolerant of beliefs other than their own, I have become more sarcastic and aggresive in my arguments. The flaws in the fundementalists logic are inexcusable. Denying all other options in support of your own beliefs is the longest way to the truth.

Believing in a divine creator is one thing (even I can't comprehend something coming from nothing). Why don't you just claim that your devine creator did the big Bang or some other logical alternative? Insisting your right based on a single old text is asking for pointed criticism. The good thing about religion is that they don't change with the times (maintains some moral standards). The worst thing about religion is that they don't change (comprimises the credibility of everything they say/do).

If aggresive/sarcastic degrades to insulting, feel free to put me in my place. I love the spirited debate, but certainly don't want to lose any friends in the process.

Cheers!

[TraceZ]

Sean thank you for your post and nobody is going to lock you for speaking up. Thats not what we are about here. Were all mature people presenting a good discussion, maybe out of place on a car forum but its very interesting to hear all the sides of it from our peers here.

I've thought about this also. But didn't he already try that. Comming to earth in the form of man preforming miracles and signs of wonder and living a perfect no-sin life, God on earth, proclaiming it in not only his words but his actions, natural and supernatural...what kind of reaction did it spawn then back in times when people were RELIGIOUS? what kind of reaction would it stir up in a world that has rejected Him?

Its easy to take a stand point of saying I have no solid proff that he exsists so I choose not to follow him and accept him in my life and benefit from it. If anyone can tell me their solid proff that there is no God based on facts, the very type of facts they desire to know there IS a god i'd like to see them. I mean really, if everything was always here or came from a big bang or whatever theres no origin to explain it....just as there is no way to prove there was always a god and all these thigns came from God. Its easy to say i have no proff I dont believe, the world evolved or whatever but we have no solid proff that God doesn't exsist. If that makes any sense....People of faith are always on the defense side, but what would happen if we were stirring up the questions pinning non-believers? I think we still wouldn't have any facts but we'd have a lot of things in believers lifes that personally have proven God exsists.

Dont be offended if I sound like a smartass.

But...You want me to prove God does not exist? If you are 100% sure he does, please send him over to my house next time you talk to him. We can have dinner or something. I'm very willing to listen. If he exists, and is omnipitant it should be simple for him to be in many places at once, even stop time and have dinner with my family.

Did you know that when nobody is looking I can fly like a bird. But only when nobody is looking. Now I want you to prove I cannot.

If I were to tell my kids that I could fly like a bird every day, they would grow up believing it to be fact, just like kids that grow up in religous families believing in God. I will raise my kids to be mindfull, and open to all ideas. They can decide what is best for themselves when they are older.

[Camaro4-2]

Good points from both sides. We all seem to have our reasons for believing in what we believe. Although I have seen Tracy fly, dont try to fool us. I guess I'm the opposite because I grew up in a family that told me God wasn't real. Now I'm standing here telling the that He is.

This threads been all over the map and I think its fizzling so, good debate guys i'm sure well end up doing it again. I hope the spirit touches you like it did me. I take comfort knowing I had the same look of "whatever dude" on my face as you might now. Those who claim to know God like as do I know what i'm talking about. You guys are great, love you guys...

back to the beginning of the thread...
Pretty ironic way to go....lol(hate to laugh about something...but the irony...man)

[Kevin - Blown 95 TA]

How many people think Jesus was a White guy with blue eyes as is so often portrayed? Who thinks that the King James version of the Bible has anything in common with the dead sea scrolls?

As for confessing all your sins and getting religion at the last moment of your life "just in case" - you better watch that. A lot of people die suddenly and others just blur out with a dull mind. So, if there's any doubt about your faith, you better not wait until the last minute to resolve your differences, because it might not go down that way! BANG - You're dead! Oh SH--! White light at the end of the tunnel coming too fast - Window of opportunity gone...now flames & torment for ever & ever...

Dinosaur bones - now were those just thrown in there to test faith and cause controversy? Were the Cretaceous, Jurassic, Mesozoic, and Pliestocene periods really less than 10k yrs ago? Maybe the Great Flood killed off the dinosaurs 10k years ago right after they were created! Global warming caused by methane from dino farts melted the ice caps. No, it couldn't have been global warming back then, cause there weren't any liberals to invent it! Were there dinosaurs on the arc along with the girraffes, chimps, and Saurus cranes?

[Nightrage]

How can you be intimidated by eternal suffering? Your soul doesn't have nerves so go ahead, burn a mass of energy all you want. Nothing will happen. Some people like to argue "Well this is the afterlife. What you know as pain now can be multiplied by infinite amounts". Bring it on! I challenge Satan to a race I challenge him to a dual to the death! but wait, i can't die....oops, guess nothing bad will happen then. Why do people fear gods wrath, what's he going to do, yell at you real loud? STOOOOPPPPP. Eternal damnation doesn't exist and if it does then i'd rather be prodded and sent to a freezing tundra or a blazing inferno than to just sit there perfectly still for the rest of eternity as pretty much ANYTHING else is a sin.

[AmericanZ28]

Maybe you're talking about the wealthy Vatican place, but if to keep perspective, any "normal" Catholic churches are not doing so well. My church has a huge staff, not to mention are located in one of the most expensive places to live in America, and make less than what they need. They generally need $15k/week to survive, and on 5,000 members, get $13k/week. They are in huge debt and have absolutely zero wealth. My high school was a normal sized Christian (First Assembly) church, and the head pastor drove a Lexus...my current head pastor drives a Sunfire. My high school church even has AC, but my catholic church has only ceiling fans. I'm not saying this is true for all cases, but this is definitely true around my area.

The same is true here in California! A cousin of mine recently got married to someone who is christian. They got married at his church, so the wedding was a christian wedding. The church itself wasn't overly impressive. But what was impressive was the priests BMW M3, his wifes BMW 540i, and the sons BMW 530i. My brother and I couldnt believe it when we saw the priest and his family each drive away in new luxury cars! We began asking some of the guests at the wedding about the reception, and I was surprised to know how much it cost them for what they got. The local catholic churches around here are also usually under tight budgets.

[beachbum86]

First of all, I’m not trying to disrespecting anyone or flaming on any of this. I just want you all to know that I’m sincere in what I say and am just stating what I believe and maybe striking up new ideas to discuss on.

Ok guys… I’ve just read this entire thread and everyone here has excellent points and ideas with their personal beliefs. The THEORY of evolution is quite intriguing and also might have some fact to it. The big bang is the most believable of them all. But what it all comes down to is faith. Weather you believe in a “higher power” or not. I, personally, do. But I have had experiences that have led me to my beliefs and ideas. The majority of society is a “must see to believe” and have not seen. I have seen so I have personal experience that helps in my faith.

Now the big bang theory is, like I said, the most plausible in this discussion (I think). It could have been ten thousand years or ten billion years (I tend to lean more towards the billions because of carbon dating). So this whole thing we know as existence came from nothing in space. Two “things” collided and boom, here we are. My question is where did those two “things” come from? They had to be there from something. Maybe God put them there, maybe they were all that was left from the remnants of a previous universe, but we have no way to tell except for faith and our own ideas and beliefs. But bottom line, something can’t come from nothing. It had to have had help from some higher power (I think). Tell me what you guys think. I have not been able to get a logical answer on this from niether physists nor theologists at the local college back home. I always seem to stump them on that question.

As far as the bible, the bible we have today is nothing like the Dead Sea scrolls, which are the closest thing to a bible, accepted in the Christian community. The bible we know today was edited in favor of King James and I have also HEARD that the whole catholic faith was created to appease the same king. Just what I’ve heard (could be wrong, if anyone knows different let me know).

So I hope that I have not offended anyone and that I have made some good points. But like I said earlier, it ALL comes down to faith and what you have seen, know, and believe in. Thanks for reading. Good morning to all.

Frank

[N20LT4Bird]

N20, I tried to stay out of this one too

The only way creationists "win" any debates, is through strong arm tactics, and very little real science. So I am not going to go toe- to toe with you ( I have had enough of the - oh it's SO amazing and SO complicated how could it be anything but the almighty) on this.

This couldnt be farther from the truth. There is so much blatent disregard for scientific LAW in the formation of evolutionary THEORY its ridiculous. You say youre sick of the "oh its sooo complicated" arguement. But it does ring of truth and is scientifically backed. I will oversimplify this arguement arguement using the 2ND LAW of Thermodynamics. Im sure your familiar with it from College Physics. Its the law of increasing entropy. Im paraphrasing, but generally it says that in ANY system, unless acted upon by an outside influence, the system will deteriorate and break down. ITS LAW! - Fact, like gravity.... How then can we go from simple one celled organisms (by the way where did THEY come from ) to the complex beings that we are, if the tendancy is to become less organized. Please dont say natural selection, because even Darwin himself would laugh at the idea. Natural Selection is pretty much fact, but it in NO WAY proves the ridiculous macro-evolution scheme that the humanist try to proport.

I could also argue this point from the LAW of cause and effect and we could go back and forth forever and ever on this, but just be aware that it isnt "strong arm tatics" that we use, but GOOD science.

Did you know that the creationists have changed the theory on how the petrified forests were formed? The signs in the national park have been changed because of their work done after the eruption of Mt. St. Helens. They proved that it wasnt millions of years of layered forests, but a rapid occurence (by volcanic eruption) that forms petrified forests. Its a long story, but its SCIENCE. CHeck it out.

The bible is book with a huge fan base. But there is no more evidence that it is true, than say Harry Potter (other than the only slightly stronger resolve of religion fans ).
So what is it N20 (or anybody), easy question for the faithful:

Is the bible full of true stories or metaphors? Fact or fiction? Beware of answering both.

Respectfully disagreeing (and risking a lock I am sure)
Sean

Argueing that the Bible isnt backed by ANY evidence is a ridiculous arguement that even the most hardcore atheist wouldnt venture into. 66 books, written over thousands of years, by multiple authors, yet it fits together, refrencing the end from the beginning, and the beginning from the end without contradiction. Hmmmmmm....

To answer your question: Factual, true stories.