NFB: Does God have a sense of irony?

[N20LT4Bird]

The big bang is the most believable of them all. But what it all comes down to is faith.
Now the big bang theory is, like I said, the most plausible in this discussion (I think). It could have been ten thousand years or ten billion years (I tend to lean more towards the billions because of carbon dating).

As far as the bible, the bible we have today is nothing like the Dead Sea scrolls, which are the closest thing to a bible, accepted in the Christian community. The bible we know today was edited in favor of King James and I have also HEARD that the whole catholic faith was created to appease the same king. Just what I’ve heard (could be wrong, if anyone knows different let me know).

Frank

Actually, carbon dating doesnt work in dating "Billions of years" due to the relativily short half-life. Potassium-Argon or Uranium 238 is used.......but there are many assumptions, and presuppositions put into place with all of these dating methods. And....for every old earth dating method you give me, I can give you a young earth dating method. Which one is right? Its up for debate.

And as far as the original manuscripts (actually only within a few hundred years of original) from the Bible go, youd be surprised how close they are proven to be. DOnt discredit your faith on what others have told you, look into for yourself

[Camaro4-2]

As far as the bible, the bible we have today is nothing like the Dead Sea scrolls, which are the closest thing to a bible, accepted in the Christian community. The bible we know today was edited in favor of King James and I have also HEARD that the whole catholic faith was created to appease the same king. Just what I’ve heard (could be wrong, if anyone knows different let me know).
Frank

The Bible was written over 1500 year span, over 40 generations, written by more than 40 authors, from every walk of life including, kings, peasants, philosophers, fisherman, poets, statesman, scholars etc, it was written in different places to include, moses in teh wilderness, jeremiah in the dungeon, danieal on a hillside and in a palace, paul inside prision walls, luke while traveling, john on the isle of Patmos and others in the rigors of a military campaign. It was written in different times moods over three continents, in 3 different languages(herew in the old test. aramaic and greek in the new test.) The subject matter includes hundereds of controlversial topics. Yet the biblical authors spoke with harmony and continuity from Genesis to Revelation. We go from "paradise lost" in the first book Genesis, to Paradise Regained in the last book, revelation.
From a literary standpoint the bible is an anomoly. With what was said above and the fact that its applicable to every nation, every generation, every culture, its quite asounding.
If you think its phony and whatnot or there is no validity to the bible do some deep research. Theres a book called " A ready defense " by Josh McDowell. He thought Chritianity was moronic and that Christians were full of hoey and all the normal things most ppl say. He set out to disprove the validity of the Bible in College. For the past 15 years hes been researching and throughout his quest he became a Christian! Its a great book that details all the inner-connections, of the bible contrasted to other documents and historical evidence and all those kind of things. Its amazing. And if you can pick up another book thats like the Bible in those aspects i'd liek to see it. You also have to spearate Christianity and Religion. Christianity is your personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the life changer, our savior. The Bible is the word of God, the truth, flawless. Religions and churches were created by man. Helpful to communites and helpful in growing with in your walk with christ but not without flaw.

N20- thanks for stickin up for the truths...your right about studying it for yourself. Theres more evidence supporting the validity of the bible than there is disproving it..much much much much much more. And the carbon-dating and all that young earth stuff very much science in it...but if science ever tried to bring in an idea of creation everything it stands for would be lost.

[Camaro4-2]

They just built a church down the road from me. It cost them (this is no joke) $8,000,000. 8 million dollars for a church, are you kidding me? It's actually not a new church. ...Apparently it's in god's will for his worshippers to sit in air conditioning.

Thats a lot of money for a church. I live on the coast of florida and I cant tell you how many very expensive night clubs, bars, and other lustful drinking establishments there are around here, contributing to DUI's, abortions, fights, violence, alcoholism, teen preg and unwanted preg in general.
Last time they threw up a church the church was cranking out all that stuff and more...oh wait no it wasn't...it was giving youth something wholesome to do on wed, helping the community espeically during times of rebuilding like these hurricanes, giving money to missions and needy funds in country and overseas, establishing a moral base in a society with falling morals, bringing people closer to Jesus Christ, and changing peoples lives for the better. I think when people compalin about churches having money they are spending time targeting the wrong establishments.
just food for thought...
kind of reminds me of my friend who is antichristian also(much like i was), and I was listening to Music that had lyrics about God and positive things, same style of music he was listening to with equally good tunes. But he got all ticked off about it and it was unbearable. Same music but instead of negative lyrics about free sex, alcohol, depression, drugs, it was positive lyrics about being happy, loving god, and enjoying life. Why righteousness turns people off these days and evil bad things make ppl comfortable i'm not sure.
Its like our parents wouldn't let us do things because there was something wrong with them, same things we wont let our kids do, because there not right. Drinking, premarital sex, drugs, wrong crowds, watching pornography yadi yadi yadi. So if our parents knew the wrong, and now we know the wrong and protect our kids from it, why would we allow ourselves to do those things?
Sorry just wanted to through some more out there...

[Dave M]

I'm very much like TraceZin that I can't profess to know whether something exists or not. I am open minded and don't pretend to know what actually happened. No matter which side you believe, you're basing it on faith. For TrazeZ and others like myself, I reccomend you read "More Than a Carpenter" by Josh McDowell. The same author Camaro 4-2 mentions above. Everyone claims the Bible can not be proven scientifically, when what they're really after is the kind of proof you'd find in a courtroom, beyond a reasonable doubt. The book attacks the whole i"is it true or not" debate by using this test. What evidence is there to support either side? I read this book and it really made me think, I mean really think. I recommend reading it, it's a short paperback and is a very easy read, it's not full of hard words and technical jargon.

TraceZ, you used the example of telling your kids you could fly. That's true, but the same is true for most of th general public. We've all been taught in school (or at least most of us) that evolution is correct, the big-bang created the universe, we evolved from monkeys, etc... Do we really believe these things or do we believe them because it's what we've always been taught?

I still consider myself open minded and do not profess to know the truth, but I suggest you read the above book... you'll hear arguments that are likely new to most people, and they're supported by evidence. It probably won't do much for guys like Nightrage, because they are dead set against believing for whatever reason. And no offense to you Nightrage, but to me your position is as bad as those who are the most religious. You're blindly choosing one position over another when, I think, we should keep an open mind or take an unbiased look at evidence for each side. Unfortunately, truly unbiased opinions are impossible to get or form, and how do you know evidence is truly evidence and not mistaken or malisciously created?

[Sean 94z28]

This couldnt be farther from the truth. There is so much blatent disregard for scientific LAW in the formation of evolutionary THEORY its ridiculous.

Oh, so you believe this one college lesson in the 2nd law (despite being only partially correct about how it applies to this example - is the sun not a huge outside influence to what you're claiming is a closed system), but the rest of the sciences were completely wrong (biology, astronomy, archeology, this list goes on forever). Sounds like a lot of wasted tuition to me.

You could bring up your references and I could link rebuttals for pages and pages, and we would only be regurgitating the same recent creation "breakthrough" theories that are so hotly debated these days (and to my satisfaction discerdited). To do them justice they would have to be individual threads, and therefore I suggest people who are interested search for those dedicated places on the net. Watch for bias on BOTH sides.

It all comes down to a persons standard of evidence. Is your standard a sound, solid, communicated set of reasonable proposals (which the Creationist position is)? Or is it the results rooted in hundreds/thousands of years of study, millions of mistakes and successes of the scientific community from every imaginable walk of life (even religious ones)?

The creationist flaw is that they can't be wrong, and that there can be no flaws in their original assumption which they intend to prove. Their science will have the same cyclical self fullfilling result that it's literature does.

Who to trust? The mainstream scientific body. Or the scientists with an agenda? I saw that petrified forest program too (intelligent sounding presentation), just can't remember if it was on before or after the moon landing hoax program (which also had reasonable sounding arguments to the non-expert in that scientific discipline.)

Sounds like another conspiracy theory. This one about the evil anti-god scientists discarding all logic and reasoning in order to discredit their religious foe. I am sorry but it is not. They are life loving people like everyone else who have an equally strong desire to know where we came from and what our purpose is.

If you really want to believe we have progressed this far without even being in the ballpark (and I mean by a factor of millions) with the speed of light, age of the universe, and other fundamental basis for current science, more power to ya. But it's not like we left for the moon, and got out there and found, WOW, that is only a couple of hundred miles away, not hundreds of thousands. We have fuel to spare!

The problem is to prove your point, what other tools are there other than the ones established by the scientific community? Do we have an atomic clock that tracks our "understanding" of time to an almost uncomprehendable degree? Is that device not based on radioactive decay? Or not?

The basis of the creationist argument is this: If there are any flaws whatsoever in scientific theory, then it must be completely wrong. In addition, since it is not fully understood or accurate, then it must obviously be the work of god.

Only one side in this debate actually claims to know ALL the answers, without any opportunity to be corrected.

Then again,an omni-potent creator may have just created the "illusion" of an old earth/universe. Then all this hard work was for nothing, because the answer was always there in that book. Oh darn it!

Is or is not the following a legitimate test of true believer for your literal, factual, nothing but true stories bible (remember you chose bible = fact):

Mark 16: 15-18:
And He [Jesus] said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents and if they drink ANY deadly poison, it shall not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they [the sick] will recover."

So a true believer like yourself can drink ANY deadly poison or lay on hands? Or may we also have different definitions of literal (as we do evidence). Or was it the dead sea scrolls I should have quoted.

I fear Fundamentalism of any religion far more than the God they claim to support.

Sincerely,
Sean

[N20LT4Bird]

Oh, so you believe this one college lesson in the 2nd law (despite being only partially correct about how it applies to this example - is the sun not a huge outside influence to what you're claiming is a closed system), but the rest of the sciences were completely wrong (biology, astronomy, archeology, this list goes on forever). Sounds like a lot of wasted tuition to me.

Do I beleive a college lesson in thermodynamics? Thats like asking me if I believe a lesson in the laws of gravity? Of course, its LAW. Your arguement of the sun making the universe an open system is a common rebuttle that the evolutionist usually jump to immediately. First, the universe is a closed system and the sun is within it. Second even if the sun was an outside influence, you still fail to answer how that influences the system to decrease entropy. Well, it provides heat - so what? If I had all the ingredients for a cake, I could heat it all I wanted to, its never gonna be a cake, unless acted upon by an outside influence to take disorder (the ingredients) and make order (a cake). Its SIMPLE arguements like these that the evolutionist sweeps under the rug - it not a MINOR inconsistancy - its a MAJOR PROBLEM that chips away at the foundation of the theory. Your right, we could on and on all day long and never come to answer. The thing is that the evolutionist has an ajenda too - to prove that there is no God. To be your own boss. No God, no accountability. And they will fight (juat as we will) to the end over it.

Mark 16: 15-18:
And He [Jesus] said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents and if they drink ANY deadly poison, it shall not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they [the sick] will recover."

So a true believer like yourself can drink ANY deadly poison or lay on hands? Or may we also have different definitions of literal (as we do evidence). Or was it the dead sea scrolls I should have quoted.


Sincerely,
Sean

This passage speaks of various gifts that a believer may be given. It doesnt say that all believers will possess all these gifts all the time. It says these are signs of a believer. The Bible speaks of all kinds of people doing extraordinary things because they had faith. Could I drink deadly poison? Sure. If my God allowed it. Would I go out and handle snakes and drink poison for fun? NO! Satan tempted Jesus in his final hours to do things that only He could do. In Mathew 4:

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'[2] "
7Jesus answered him, "It is also written: "DO NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST".

[TODD 2000 V6 CAMARO]

In Mathew 4:

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'[2] "
7Jesus answered him, "It is also written: "DO NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST". [/QUOTE]

Good answer!! Ya know one thing that really helps to further my faith? This discussion!! The very fact that non-believers with get instantly offended by the very mention of Jesus' name, that they will be offended and unable to listen to christian music, that they react to Christians with disdain, challenges, and even hatred does nothing for me but to affirm what the Bible says: That we will be condemned for our beliefs, that at the very mention of Jesus' name...demons flee.
Someone asked if we would believe in God just for fear of what will happen in the afterlife. Not at all, not me anyway. Jesus said, "I come to give to you life, and life mroe fully." So many people just see God as a cosmic killjoy and the bible as a book of don'ts. You couldn't be more wrong. The bible is all about the joy, the comfort, the completeness of life that only a relatonship with God can give. There is so little you have to give, just your faith...but you get so much more!

[Nightrage]

Thats a lot of money for a church. I live on the coast of florida and I cant tell you how many very expensive night clubs, bars, and other lustful drinking establishments there are around here, contributing to DUI's, abortions, fights, violence, alcoholism, teen preg and unwanted preg in general.
Last time they threw up a church the church was cranking out all that stuff and more...oh wait no it wasn't...it was giving youth something wholesome to do on wed, helping the community espeically during times of rebuilding like these hurricanes, giving money to missions and needy funds in country and overseas, establishing a moral base in a society with falling morals, bringing people closer to Jesus Christ, and changing peoples lives for the better. I think when people compalin about churches having money they are spending time targeting the wrong establishments.
just food for thought...

That's a pretty poor comparison considering the fact that night clubs are there to make money and the church is supposedly there to help people. With the 8 million dollars they spent on building a huge church, they could have done something to help people with that. Think about how much money that is- $8,000,000. If you really need some big elaborate church (and the church is against greed so i don't see why they'd even need that much as the love of jesus is enough for them......supposedly ) spend 1 million and use the other 7 million to do something positive. If you made $100,000 a year (and most people make a small fraction of that) it would take you 80 years to make 8 million dollars. They didn't spend 8 million on the church and programs and such, they spent 8 million dollars ($8,000,000!!!!!!!) on a building. Nothing more, nothing less. How can you possibly claim to need nothing more than jesus in your life when you do something like that? I don't think a church big enough to fit everyone that attends it (i don't live in a huge town) and all the books and necessary equipment would even hit 1 million. No one could ever justify this.

[Nightrage]

Good answer!! Ya know one thing that really helps to further my faith? This discussion!! The very fact that non-believers with get instantly offended by the very mention of Jesus' name, that they will be offended and unable to listen to christian music, that they react to Christians with disdain, challenges, and even hatred does nothing for me but to affirm what the Bible says: That we will be condemned for our beliefs, that at the very mention of Jesus' name...demons flee.

HAHAHA kinda like how the christians gave the scandinavians two choices? baptism or beheading. People are always talking about how jesus will return to earth some day and spread his love to the world. It's been what, 2000 years? Where is he? He didn't come for the jews during the Holocaust or the muslims during the crusades or the victims of the inquisitions and the witch trials and he sure as heck isn't coming for us. Nobody responds with hatred because they're demons. They respond with hatred because if god is there to spread such a good message, why have more people died in his name than for ANY OTHER REASON??? Wouldn't he have done something about it? Sure, the bible is there for us and we can follow it if we want or we don't have to if we don't want to- free will. At the same time, suicide is a sin and we'll be condemned if we question his existance. Somehow, he also has our lives predetermined yet there are still sins despite the fact that he knows what we're going to do before we are. Now someone will try to argue "if you were a parent and you knew your son was going to go drinking with his friends despite the fact you told them not to, you'd still punish them." God (if it does exist)isn't a modern day human parent, it's a divine entity. I don't think that if god is real, it would think in the same "go to your room, you're grounded" state of mind. Especially not if it was omnipotent. People devote their lives to stories in a book (or books or scrolls). Science has shown that it took the Earth thousands of years to cool down to be the right temperature for life to be possible. God just created a world and threw people on within the next couple of days. Look at what Adolf Hitler did. He had millions of devoted followers that all believed in his thoughts and ideals and so on. There are still countless neo- nazi's ( Hitler is dead, give it up) Does this make him the son of god?

(Almost forgot, still love ya guys!)

[Sean 94z28]

Do I beleive a college lesson in thermodynamics? Thats like asking me if I believe a lesson in the laws of gravity? Of course, its LAW. Your arguement of the sun making the universe an open system is a common rebuttle that the evolutionist usually jump to immediately.

I haven't seen universal agreement on whether the universe is a closed system or not as it pertains to TD (even though many evolutionists do hold that position). My interpretation is that "closed" would require a finite system. This still doesn't explain the other sciences that were invalidated by your faith, while subjective manipulations of TD can be used to arguably support it.

Second even if the sun was an outside influence, you still fail to answer how that influences the system to decrease entropy. Well, it provides heat - so what? If I had all the ingredients for a cake, I could heat it all I wanted to, its never gonna be a cake, unless acted upon by an outside influence to take disorder (the ingredients) and make order (a cake).

This is also a simplification. Could not the conversion of heat energy (sun) to convection currents in a liquid, "mix" the pot adequately enough for a compatible combination of atoms/molecules to possiibly interact? You are assuming a predetermined outcome (a cake). This assumes that somebody wanted to end up with a cake (God). I am saying that the outcome was not predetermined.

The thing is that the evolutionist has an ajenda too - to prove that there is no God.

True, some do. I don't. Evolutionist-probably. Real scientist- I don't buy it. I don't want to disprove the exsistance of God. I want to know what really happened.

To be your own boss. No God, no accountability. And they will fight (juat as we will) to the end over it.

This has less validity than any other point. But is an entirely different thread. Let's just say if you need a higher power to be a good person, I am VERY glad you have one.

This passage speaks of various gifts that a believer may be given.

I missed the "may be" portion of the quote entirely, and am still missing it. Kind of reads like all believers are included, but I'll give that it doesn't say exactly WHEN you are immune. Hmmm. Would have been nice to get clarification on that. Another darn it!

I didn't ask you to drink poison or anything. I am just saying, that with your solid knowledge of the sciences, do you think there are people who can drink any poison at some "special" time and survive? Evidence?

And what is with the ones who can heal with their hands and aren't sharing? Or are we stuck on how to define healing literally? Like as in spiritual healing and not really curing or healing physical wounds. Ooop forgot about Benny, my bad.

One thing we can probably agree on is the strength of human desire to know these answers. It really goes to the core of who we are as humans and why were so different than the rest of the animal world. Thanks for helping to try to fill that void of desired knowledge. I truly think it helps us better understand each other.

I am still in the uncomfortable position of taking the side of the debate that has incomplete, or sometimes flawed information. I can never hope win against a side that has all the answers and can't be wrong.

Not always right,
Sean

[Kevin - Blown 95 TA]

I think part of the problem is that most humans can't begin to grasp the vastness of the universe.

Take Corona Borealis, for instance. A large galaxy cluster in that particular constellation is some 400 million parsecs away (1 parsec=20 trillion miles). The light coming from this cluster is over a billion years old. A lot of those stars aren't there anymore. Now our own galaxy, the Milkey Way, measures 35,000 parsecs across and contains about 300 billion stars, give or take 100 billion. Light takes about 100,000 years to cross our galaxy or about 25,000 years to reach the Earth from the Galaxy's center, and about 12 hours to cross our puny little solar system at a measily 186,000 mph. Now, a neighboring galaxy called Andromeda, which is a mere 670,000 parsecs (13,400,000,000,000,000,000 mi) away(but still part of the local group) has light which takes over 2 million years to get here. Lastly, there are billions of galaxies out there to consider, so who the hell can figure it out?

Comments???

[Nightrage]

Funny you bring that up. That's what we learned in my astronomy class today. The teacher said that if you could travel at the speed of light, it would take 3000 years to get to Andromeda. Or we could just hop in a twin turbo f-body and make it there next week

[N20LT4Bird]

Sean, Your missing the point on the entropy arguement. It doesnt matter if its an open or closed system. The only reason the law doesnt technically apply to an open system is because if there an outside force keeping the system from deteriorating then its by definition an open system. But, just becasue the sytem is open doesnt mean that entropy will not increase. The "open" part of the system must directly counteract the breakdown of that system. A simple illustration: If I park my Bird in the garage, it will deteriorate over time, unless I go in there and specifically prevent it from happening. Is my garage a closed system? No. Theres air, moisture, light, dark, heat, cold, etc all affecting the car TOWARDS deterioration. Only the "correct open" in the system (ie. me washing, waxing, repairing, starting it up etc.) will keep the car from deteriorating. In that circumstance, the law would not apply becasue I am directly counteracting the deterioration of that system. So, if we apply that example to the evolution of life, it would need a very specific open in the system to create the complexities that we see today, (ie. a guiding force). So, while you can argue the system is open, that doesnt negate the 2nd law of thermodynamics. If you argued that God was the open in the system I would be forced to agree that at least scientifically thats a possibility.

My rebuttle to your convection theory is simple: If I took a million f-body parts and piled them up in a junyard very prone to tornadoes and I let the parts sit there for billions of years and billions of tornadoes would I ever get an f-body? Or anything at all but a pile of parts? Again, an oversimplification, but you get my drift. And......thats giving you the parts. Where the parts came from is another arguement.

[N20LT4Bird]

I think part of the problem is that most humans can't begin to grasp the vastness of the universe.

Take Corona Borealis, for instance. A large galaxy cluster in that particular constellation is some 400 million parsecs away (1 parsec=20 trillion miles). The light coming from this cluster is over a billion years old. A lot of those stars aren't there anymore. Now our own galaxy, the Milkey Way, measures 35,000 parsecs across and contains about 300 billion stars, give or take 100 billion. Light takes about 100,000 years to cross our galaxy or about 25,000 years to reach the Earth from the Galaxy's center, and about 12 hours to cross our puny little solar system at a measily 186,000 mph. Now, a neighboring galaxy called Andromeda, which is a mere 670,000 parsecs (13,400,000,000,000,000,000 mi) away(but still part of the local group) has light which takes over 2 million years to get here. Lastly, there are billions of galaxies out there to consider, so who the hell can figure it out?
Comments???

Interesting points. We're taking two things for granted though: 1. The speed of light has remained unchanged since the beginning of time and 2.) the speed of light does not change as it travels the vast expanses of space. Food for thought

[Camaro4-2]

Good answer!! Ya know one thing that really helps to further my faith? This discussion!! The very fact that non-believers with get instantly offended by the very mention of Jesus' name, that they will be offended and unable to listen to christian music, that they react to Christians with disdain, challenges, and even hatred does nothing for me but to affirm what the Bible says: That we will be condemned for our beliefs, that at the very mention of Jesus' name...demons flee.
Someone asked if we would believe in God just for fear of what will happen in the afterlife. Not at all, not me anyway. Jesus said, "I come to give to you life, and life mroe fully." So many people just see God as a cosmic killjoy and the bible as a book of don'ts. You couldn't be more wrong. The bible is all about the joy, the comfort, the completeness of life that only a relatonship with God can give. There is so little you have to give, just your faith...but you get so much more!

Its true. Theres much persacution going on stateside these days however its not hunt and kill persacution but its a supressing persacution. If you look on the news its stories about nixing "one nation under god" and people being offended by monuments in front of courthouses that have the bible depicted in it(god forbid we have a book of morals infront of a courthouse), next is the dollar i'm sure. I dont buy this separation of govt and state because its nowhere in the consitution to the magnitude they are taking it. McDonalds doesn't sell supersized meals anymore because some guy sued McDonalds because he didn't know it wasn't good for his health? Having seen people, including myself, 100% completely changed as a 'saved' person and new creation in the body of Christ i have nothing but faith. As much as we dont have the answers christianity, we dont have the answers to science, so we are left with choices as of what to believe. I've seen the power of Christ and the power of Man. I'd rather have the first, even if I die and find out I was wrong. The god of this world has done his job coulding and distracting the minds of a lot of people. True christians have always been the minority and always will be, but as I profess not to know the answers and that I could be blatelty wrong looking at the evidence presented...from what I've experienced and feel in my heart, the inner peace, joy and enlightenment, something we all strive for, I wouldn't give it up for anything...
Aside from where did we come from science has done i think a lousy job of telling us who we are, why we have a conciousness, why our moods change, how to control our goals, how to change our wants, how to ahcieve a state of complete job and peace and eternal love. They've told us why they think these things happen and the answer is mood altering drugs...bad explanation to me. God through his son Jesus Christ has instantly not only given me life, but "given life more abundantly"...we all have thigns we dont want in our lives, things we dont want to do, or dont want to think, or ways we WANT to act, but dont, because we are in bondage of our own desires. Jesus can deliver you so easily as long as you give him a chance and have faith in Him. Have said that...having the innerpeace...the world could have been created, could have been made of chocolate, whatever...but I choose to belive what i do because I've seen things first hand that give me reason not to worry about those other issues. Through your punches, call me weak minded, close minded, blind faithed, call me what you will...because when I wake up tomorrow morning, I still wont know for sure where the world came from, but I'll have the love of Jesus living in my heart, an inner sense of peace, joyfullness of the Lord, and see God working in my life and others lives every day...(thats what true Christians base their faith off of...its not something somebody convinced us to do...its so much more than that, but for many as it used to be for me, its hard to accept)