NFB: Does God have a sense of irony?

[Camaro4-2]

All we can surmise is that the TransAm god is a powerful god and the GN god is a weak god, and only the TransAm god had the might to protect his child from the wrath of angry Posieden.

Its ture....read the owners manual...its in there...


Sean...You've presented some good facts and I know i'm just throwing scripture around here...but its got some truth to it...as I once was taking your position...and others have crossed over for that side too...anyways...

10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes. [1]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

15For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'[1]

Why do the nations say,
"Where is their God?"
3 Our God is in heaven;
he does whatever pleases him.
4 But their idols are silver and gold,
made by the hands of men.
5 They have mouths, but cannot speak,
eyes, but they cannot see;
6 they have ears, but cannot hear,
noses, but they cannot smell;
7 they have hands, but cannot feel,
feet, but they cannot walk;
nor can they utter a sound with their throats.
8 Those who make them will be like them,
and so will all who trust in them.

I know its no facts of proff but I always feel like tossing some of the Word out there is helpful sometimes. What its basically saying and theres more scripture that backs this up is...let those with ears hear! that those who are open to Jesus begin to undersatnd Jesus and the Holy Spirit reveals these undersatndings to the person. I still like that scripture that I quoted earlier that says The world in all its fancy knowledge couldn't come to know God. So God is the only one who can reveal it. If you close your eyes you wont see in front of you. If you decide how to get somewhere and set out there you'll only know if it was the right way in the end. And I say this not just to you as a nonbeliever, I say this to us Christians too. If were wrong and were so passionate about Christ, we aren't going to accept that Jesus was just some shmoe, no matter what proff is presented to us, because we know the god of this world will confuse us as he even tried to do to the SON OF GOD!(according to the Bible). So we all have to base our decision on either what facts can convince us or where our heart tells us to go. And all devote Christians can vouch on this fact that theres a deeper knowledge of the truth than some head knowledge facts, charts, graphs, artifacts, power point presentations wont ever give us. But that inner peace and union with our Father in heaven, through our King of Kings, the Prince of Peace. I know were gonna get shot down and persecuted for our belifes and the Bible tells us this...but like i keep saying...what its done for me in my life and my friends around me, I cant deny it, wether real or not, and the love and peace Jesus has brought to my life and the transforamtion of my life, releasing me from the Bondage spoken of earlier in this article, things that no matter what I did i couldn't get rid of but when Jesus called my name and the Holy Sprit set residence in my heart, it did some spring cleaning and gradually got rid of a lot of junk. Power of the mind maybe...

I personally know missionaries who tell me some amazing stories bout whats going on overseas...you wanna see signs of wonder....go on a missions trip.Change your perspective on many thigns...and these are ppl who knew not of Jesus and the gospel but when the power of God shows up...man.

Oh and another one about Prayers not being asnwers and wondering why God isn't showing up....

Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save,
nor his ear too dull to hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear.

[Nightrage]

All we can surmise is that the TransAm god is a powerful god and the GN god is a weak god, and only the TransAm god had the might to protect his child from the wrath of angry Posieden.

Twas a WS6, one of the elite. The good lord Mr. Goodwrench was with this Trans Am this day.

P.S. Soylent Green is people!!!

[TraceZ]

Stop there. Got a quote? Did you see where I jumped in on this?

I was asking for proof of God, as an innocent child many years ago. As an adult I fully understand that the religion does not support this mortal wish. Fine.

I chimed in on what I perceive to be an attack on science. That the world was created in a literal 7 days (my first question was: literal bible or not). And while science IS not 100% accurate, nor 100% proof of anything(there is no such thing), it is also NOT incorrect by several million (or billion) orders of magnitude like a Young Earth theorists purport (my opinion). Why does this theory claim this young earth? Because it does not want to risk a SINGLE inaccuracy in the book. If you believe it literal and divenly inspired, one falsehood jeopordizes the whole.

Are you miss quoting me or did I say something I didn't intend to? I am pretty careful about word selection. Or do you fit in the catagory I just described? Who can't be troubled to try to understand, let alone ask about, another person's belief system.

I also said that religion should just claim their God did whatever the best science says happened. Big Bang - that's my God, awesome eh? Evolution - my God again, impressed yet? A universe beyond human comprehension - you guessed it, same dude! You could Say: He sent his message (bible) in a form that the people of that time period could understand. Had he told them about DNA, the universe, yada yada, it would have been far beyond their understanding. Just as some things are still far beyond our understanding. So that is why he gave us free will to become more knowledgable about his wonderful creation.

I humbly claim not NOT know where we came from, nor the exact nature of the catalyst for this. I do beleive that science (not one of many religious texts) is more historically accurate than global floods, no dinosaurs, and the willing of an entire universe into exsistance with fully functioning and sinning humans. If it was your God, fine. What was before him? Can a human comprehend a vast universe that once was nothing? No time, no matter, only a human like god? I cannot.

I also already said that it is impossiible for me to be right, because I am debating supporters of a flawless source (one that can't be wrong).

Furthermore, if their is an "Intelligent Designer", I don't beleive (at "his" level of exsistance) that he would have so many human traights. Like here's your awesome brain, use it like I say or I will burn you in eternal fire. BTW, did I mention the eternal (only 10,000 years so far) party you can earn an invite to. Just pass this simple test on earth.... bingo, your in. Even if you murdered, then found me, it's still all good.

Peace,
Sean

Good post. All I can do is admit I dont know anything for 100% sure. It boggles my mind how anyone can have 100% faith in a religion with no physical proof. 100% faith, without as much as a 1% doubt about it. That is amazing. It almost sounds like brainwashing from childhood.

Did I mention that I can fly? But, only when nobody is looking!
LOL. You guys are all great. I love being able to listen in, analyze peoples positions and inject a dose of fun every so often. I still dont have any real proof either way but I'm tending to lean towards science. I have a hard time ignoring the billions of other galaxies and billions of years of universal development. Using the doppler shift to look at the galaxies drift farther away from eachother is pretty solid proof we are in an expanding universe. It is solid and tangable. It is pretty easy to rewind time in your imagination and see the big bang. That is only simple logic. 1+1=2.

[N20LT4Bird]

Good post. All I can do is admit I dont know anything for 100% sure. It boggles my mind how anyone can have 100% faith in a religion with no physical proof. 100% faith, without as much as a 1% doubt about it. That is amazing. It almost sounds like brainwashing from childhood.
.

My faith is justified. I will stand in a room and debate an educated evolutionist on astronomy, sedimentology, anthropology, etc. Im not a know it all, and cant claim to be an expert by any means, but I've done enough research to know theres another very credible, scientific (if you could call evolution science ) side to the arguement

......is pretty solid proof we are in an expanding universe. It is solid and tangable. It is pretty easy to rewind time in your imagination and see the big bang. That is only simple logic. 1+1=2.

The logic breaks down after youve rewound all the way........where did your infinately dense piece of matter and energy (thats a lot of matter and energy) come from? And remember, when you answer, remember the laws of cause and effect. There can be NO cause greater than its effect.
.

[Dave M]

What I don't understand and what I don't see addressed is this: why does it have to be Big Bang or Creationism? What if there's really a third, as-yet-unthought-of theory that really explains it all? Our evidence says the universe is expanding so scientists reverse that to say it all must have been one point at some time, but what if it wasn't? What if it happened some other way? What if God does exist and He created all there is but the Bible is just dumbed down as to the details so our feeble minds can comprehend it? The universe is so complex with so many stars and planets... and just here on earth there are thousand of species of insects, and thousands of species of birds, and mammals.... it's hard to imagine that even a supernatural, all powerful God could have created it all. It's equally difficult to fathom that it just happened that way by chance. What if there is some other explanation, other than creation, to explain holes in the scientific theory? Instead of trying to make the facts fit our theories, why not change our theories to fit the facts? That's how we arrive at the truth. Whether those facts leads you to a theory of a creator and divine intervention, or to a big bang and evolution, or to some third theory that hasn't yet been written down, it's the truth we are all looking for. The only difference is that some believe they have already found it.

[Sean 94z28]

My faith is justified. I will stand in a room and debate an educated evolutionist on astronomy, sedimentology, anthropology, etc. Im not a know it all, and cant claim to be an expert by any means, but I've done enough research to know theres another very credible, scientific (if you could call evolution science ) side to the arguement.

Scientists sure will enjoy a good debate too. That is about as far as creation science will get (debating), until they have a foundation of evidence that rivals what currently exsists. Maybe if they started with a human and dino fossil (espcially cool would be a human and that "cedar size" privates creature) in the same strata. How many creation science digs are currently in progress, BTW? That would be huge!!

I have to ask though. Why not debate Muslims, Hindus, and other religions about our origins? You have many teammates (Christians) on your side in science. 100% of other religions are challenging your position. Is it because you wouldn't be able to reason with blind faith? Love to see those debates.

The logic breaks down after youve rewound all the way........where did your infinately dense piece of matter and energy (thats a lot of matter and energy) come from? And remember, when you answer, remember the laws of cause and effect. There can be NO cause greater than its effect.

Tracez never claimed that piece of matter did not come from a god, nor did I. Isn't that the point here, that once we are far enough removed from something we desire to know, it becomes increasingly difficult to "prove" it's exact nature. Are you saying that only creationists should be able to study the sciences you listed? That they are the only ones starting their research with the "correct facts"? Should other religions be required to fund your scientists? Creationism IS NOT science, it is religion, ask NAS (The National Academy of Sciences). BTW how many Nobel Laureates are creationists?

Sean

[TraceZ]

I have no idea where the big bang came from, but simple evidence does point that it happenned and by looking into other galaxies we can see the natural progression in how our galaxy developed. I have a really hard time accepting that one being snapped his fingers and made our earth and the universe.

As for the origin of the big bang, maybe it was initiated by a God, or maybe it was a black hole reaching critical mass or maybe it was something else. There are black holes so strong that they bend and absorb light. The mass at their center is incredibly dense and grows denser as more matter is attracted by the incredible gravitational field resulted from all that mass. The gravitational field grows stronger as well. What happens when two black holes attract eachother? How big can a black hole get before it has a gravitational field so strong it can attract anything in the universe? Will a black hole eventually explode when the mass in its center is crushed atomically? Would that be a "big bang" How big would a black hole have to be for that to happen?


I dont have the answers. The only people that claim to have all the answers are the bible thumpers and they seem to have closed minds due to the fact they are 100% positive they already have the answers.

Evolution is a theory, sure. BUT, so is Gravity and I can proove gravity works in a court of law by simply dropping a bible on the floor and demonstrating gravity for all to see. My brain is not wired to have faith in something that cannot be proved. I will be eternally open minded. Prove it to me.

[Camaro4-2]

What I don't understand and what I don't see addressed is this: why does it have to be Big Bang or Creationism? What if there's really a third, as-yet-unthought-of theory that really explains it all? Our evidence says the universe is expanding so scientists reverse that to say it all must have been one point at some time, but what if it wasn't? What if it happened some other way? What if God does exist and He created all there is but the Bible is just dumbed down as to the details so our feeble minds can comprehend it? The universe is so complex with so many stars and planets... and just here on earth there are thousand of species of insects, and thousands of species of birds, and mammals.... it's hard to imagine that even a supernatural, all powerful God could have created it all. It's equally difficult to fathom that it just happened that way by chance. What if there is some other explanation, other than creation, to explain holes in the scientific theory? Instead of trying to make the facts fit our theories, why not change our theories to fit the facts? That's how we arrive at the truth. Whether those facts leads you to a theory of a creator and divine intervention, or to a big bang and evolution, or to some third theory that hasn't yet been written down, it's the truth we are all looking for. The only difference is that some believe they have already found it.

Maybe Southpark nailed it on the head when they said Earth was a galatic reality TV show. "We put all different species on one planet...watch the mayhem" how theres a planet of deer, a planet of ape, a planet of asians, a planet of mexicans, etc and Earth is all just a big hodgpodg reality tv show...heh

[N20LT4Bird]

Scientists sure will enjoy a good debate too. That is about as far as creation science will get (debating), until they have a foundation of evidence that rivals what currently exsists.

Creation science has a huge foundation of evidence. For some reason you are failing to realize this. There are actually fossils of Dinosaur footprints with human footprint inside! Of course its explained away with some "freak" incident explanation. The Institute for Creation Research goes on "digs" all the time. One of the most exciting advances in their research, were made during the eruption of Mt St. Helens. They made huge advance in theories of catastrophism as they studied and explored the eruption. If you are really interested, there is a video outlining some of their work. I think its called, "Mount St. Helens" and it made by the institute for creation research. If you really want to learn about the "science", buy it, and some others - I dare you.

Home page: http://www.icr.org/

Video: http://www.icr.org/page/001/PROD/28/DMOSA1

Recent tech articles: http://www.icr.org/research/

Creation scientist are ALWAYS willing to participate in a formal debate with an atheist. Its the evoultionists that dont particularly care to have the hole in their theories exposed by a religious zealout. Now, if the evolutionists came up with repectable foundation of evidence, than we'd have a debate!

I have to ask though. Why not debate Muslims, Hindus, and other religions about our origins? You have many teammates (Christians) on your side in science. 100% of other religions are challenging your position. Is it because you wouldn't be able to reason with blind faith? Love to see those debates.

How many times do I have ot keep repeating this? I do not reason this issue on blind faith, but with scientific reason!

Tracez never claimed that piece of matter did not come from a god, nor did I. Isn't that the point here, that once we are far enough removed from something we desire to know, it becomes increasingly difficult to "prove" it's exact nature. Are you saying that only creationists should be able to study the sciences you listed? That they are the only ones starting their research with the "correct facts"? Should other religions be required to fund your scientists? Creationism IS NOT science, it is religion, ask NAS (The National Academy of Sciences). BTW how many Nobel Laureates are creationists?

Sean

Sean, I beg to differ on one KEY point here. Evolution is religion, not science. The evolutionist starts off with one pre-supposition: Everything we see today has come about by NATURAL CAUSES. This is atheism. Everything is based on that premise. Read your textbooks: Everything can be explained by natural causes and the processes that we see today are the processes that have occured from the beginning.

[N20LT4Bird]

Evolution is a theory, sure. BUT, so is Gravity and I can proove gravity works in a court of law by simply dropping a bible on the floor and demonstrating gravity for all to see. My brain is not wired to have faith in something that cannot be proved. I will be eternally open minded. Prove it to me.

Gravity is not a THEORY. It is scientific LAW. Theres a BIG difference. You know, that guy Newton and his LAWS of gravity. There are no LAWS of evolution.....and its a weak theory at best.

[Sean 94z28]

Why creation science isn't science at all (be sure to read the conclusion if nothing else) - Use the PDF page option if hard too read
Science and Creationism: A View from the National Academy of Sciences, Second Edition (1999)

Says who?
NAS

Be sure to check the credentials of the people involved with the publication (pp. iii, 33, and 34). If creation science is real, and they say it is not, what would that say about the educational institutions they represent? Looks like a who's who of the finest universities our country offers. Talk about a conspiracy. Whoa.

Does that mean there is no god or creator? Nope. Absolutely not!
Does that mean evolutionary theory is better than "creation science" theory? Absolutely Yes, by scientific standards. In fact, the whole creation theory is really only 3 words: God did it. Which scientifically doesn't even qualify as a theory. How can it be tested?

Sean

[TraceZ]

Gravity is not a THEORY. It is scientific LAW. Theres a BIG difference. You know, that guy Newton and his LAWS of gravity. There are no LAWS of evolution.....and its a weak theory at best.

Well, yeah the effects of gravity are law, but the actual force of gravity is theory. We have no solid explanation for it. It's effects are easy to see so nobody disputes it exists.

Religion is not as readilly apparent, that is why it is disputed. That was my point.

[fastTa]

Good post. All I can do is admit I dont know anything for 100% sure. It boggles my mind how anyone can have 100% faith in a religion with no physical proof. 100% faith, without as much as a 1% doubt about it. That is amazing. It almost sounds like brainwashing from childhood.

It always amazes me when people question faith of God when they already are exuding a very similar faith.

First of all one of the primary reasons that Christians have faith in God is because they love him. Humans can not touch, hear, smell, taste, or see love. Instead love is a power that transcends the flesh. It is a power that connects two souls or two spirits if you will. Since our 5 common human senses are not physically able to detect love, we must rely on an emotional connection to our souls in order to believe in and experience love. That is called faith. All of your's and Sean's arguments up to this point have asked for physical proof of specific things. Well where is your physical proof that there is indeed love between you and your wife Tracy? There is . You have faith in the fact that you love your wife.

[TraceZ]

It always amazes me when people question faith of God when they already are exuding a very similar faith.

First of all one of the primary reasons that Christians have faith in God is because they love him. Humans can not touch, hear, smell, taste, or see love. Instead love is a power that transcends the flesh. It is a power that connects two souls or two spirits if you will. Since our 5 common human senses are not physically able to detect love, we must rely on an emotional connection to our souls in order to believe in and experience love. That is called faith. All of your's and Sean's arguments up to this point have asked for physical proof of specific things. Well where is your physical proof that there is indeed love between you and your wife Tracy? There is . You have faith in the fact that you love your wife.

Good points. Love requires faith. But I know my wife exists, I see her every day, and she talks to me and spends time with me. That is my physical proof.. That faith I can 100% justify. Having never seen or met God, it is pretty hard to get to that 100% faith. If I said i did, I'd just be lying to you and myself. I refuse to live a lie or pretend to believe strictly out of fear of burning in a hell that may or may not exist. The best I can do is be open minded.

[fastTa]

Gravity is not a THEORY. It is scientific LAW. Theres a BIG difference. You know, that guy Newton and his LAWS of gravity. There are no LAWS of evolution.....and its a weak theory at best.

N20 is correct here. Gravity is mathematical certainty. Newton proved it beyond a doubt. His formula of basic gravitational mathematical representation of F=m*a explains the effect of one mass upon another. "The force of gravity acting between the earth and any other object is directly proportional to the mass of the earth, directly proportional to the mass of the object, and inversely proportional to the square of the distance which separates the centers of the earth and the object."

This is a little deep but bare with me. All objects of mass are in constant relative motion whether they posses kinetic energy or potential energy. So in order for their velocity and or acceleration to be changed, an outside force must be exerted upon them to do this. Newton showed that this "outside" force was exerted by boides of mass being close to one another. His basic gravitational formula shows that the force needed to energize an object to a given acceleration rate is proportional to the object's mass. The force (F) needed to move an object of a given mass (m) at a specific rate of acceleration (a), is equal to the product of the mass and the rate, or F=m*a.

So since acceleration alone can be mathematically proven and since mass alone can be mathmatically proven, and since gravity is usually descibed as "the resultant acceleration of a mass due to gravitational force", we can prove gravity exists with infinite mathematical certainty.