NFB: Does God have a sense of irony?

[fastTa]

Good points. Love requires faith. But I know my wife exists, I see her every day, and she talks to me and spends time with me. That is my physical proof.. That faith I can 100% justify. Having never seen or met God, it is pretty hard to get to that 100% faith. If I said i did, I'd just be lying to you and myself. I refuse to live a lie or pretend to believe strictly out of fear of burning in a hell that may or may not exist. The best I can do is be open minded.

Ok, let me ask you this before I post my next thoughts. Do you believe that humans posses a soul or a spirit that is unique to them, an entity that transcends the flesh?

[TraceZ]

N20 is correct here. Gravity is mathematical certainty. Newton proved it beyond a doubt. His formula of basic gravitational mathematical representation of F=m*a explains the effect of one mass upon another. "The force of gravity acting between the earth and any other object is directly proportional to the mass of the earth, directly proportional to the mass of the object, and inversely proportional to the square of the distance which separates the centers of the earth and the object."

This is a little deep but bare with me. All objects of mass are in constant relative motion whether they posses kinetic energy or potential energy. So in order for their velocity and or acceleration to be changed, an outside force must be exerted upon them to do this. Newton showed that this "outside" force was exerted by boides of mass being close to one another. His basic gravitational formula shows that the force needed to energize an object to a given acceleration rate is proportional to the object's mass. The force (F) needed to move an object of a given mass (m) at a specific rate of acceleration (a), is equal to the product of the mass and the rate, or F=m*a.

So since acceleration alone can be mathematically proven and since mass alone can be mathmatically proven, and since gravity is usually descibed as "the resultant acceleration of a mass due to gravitational force", we can prove gravity exists with infinite mathematical certainty.

I never disputed the effects of gravity. We know exactly what its effects are. We just are not 100% sure why. The WHY part is theory.

[TraceZ]

Ok, let me ask you this before I post my next thoughts. Do you believe that humans posses a soul or a spirit that is unique to them, an entity that transcends the flesh?

I dont have the answer to that. It is possible. Our brain functions on electrical impulses. That energy would need to go somewhere when we die. It might just get dispersed into the environment, it might retain its form somehow. Ball lightning exists with no outside skin to contain it. I guess there are lots of possibilities.

[fastTa]

I dont have the answer to that. It is possible. Our brain functions on electrical impulses. That energy would need to go somewhere when we die. It might just get dispersed into the environment, it might retain its form somehow. Ball lightning exists with no outside skin to contain it. I guess there are lots of possibilities.

I didn't ask you if you thought it was "possible', I asked you if you believed we had souls.

[TraceZ]

I didn't ask you if you thought it was "possible', I asked you if you believed we had souls.

Believe? Without proof, I dont believe anything completely without proof. The best I can do is believe there is a possibility. I do believe we all have an energy in our bodies. That is proven. I'm not sure if that is a soul, but I do think there is something there.

[N20LT4Bird]

Why creation science isn't science at all (be sure to read the conclusion if nothing else) - Use the PDF page option if hard too read
Science and Creationism: A View from the National Academy of Sciences, Second Edition (1999)

Says who?
NAS

Be sure to check the credentials of the people involved with the publication (pp. iii, 33, and 34). If creation science is real, and they say it is not, what would that say about the educational institutions they represent? Looks like a who's who of the finest universities our country offers. Talk about a conspiracy. Whoa.

Does that mean there is no god or creator? Nope. Absolutely not!
Does that mean evolutionary theory is better than "creation science" theory? Absolutely Yes, by scientific standards. In fact, the whole creation theory is really only 3 words: God did it. Which scientifically doesn't even qualify as a theory. How can it be tested?

Sean

That link convinced me. Im an atheist now

Sean, I spent some time browsing that site. Interesting stuff, some Ive heard, some of it I havent. The main jist of it is that the NAS says that creation science is a crock. I know that. So what? Creation scientists say that they are a crock. This is the whole dispute. This is where most people get into trouble. Because a "scientist" says it, it must be true. BULL. Everyday I listen to a scientist give me the weather report. They cant even get that right for even HALF the time. How are they going to do at coming up with a theory on origins??? Dont put that much trust in an organization
TraceZ brought up the Laws of gravity earlier......now im not trying to pick on him, but it amazes me how many people think that evolution is just as solid as the Law of Gravity; and I understand why - weve been indoctrinated since elementary school in science class. There really are a number of scientists, who arent even creationists who out and out deny evolution. This is a HUGE debate, nowhere close to being indisputable, and a million miles away from being proven.

To say that Creation science is 3 words is ridiculous. Its obvious that you didnt read any of the links I posted earlier. Thats like me saying that the theory of evolution is 3 words - Nobody did it.

[N20LT4Bird]

Why am I so passionate about this debate? Im sure alot of guys are thinking: "Give it up!" I cant.

I found this quote in a book I have. It from an article in "American Atheist". This quote is by Richard G. Bozarth, an evolutionist, and atheist:

"Christianity has fought, still fights, and will fight science to the desperate end over evolution, becasue evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus' earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destrroy Adam and Eve and the original sin and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the son of god. Take away the meaning of his death. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, AND THIS IS WHAT EVOLUTION MEANS, then Christianity is nothing!"

Now, there are a lot of Christians on this board, and I put this quote up for you guys. This isnt a matter of science, its a matter of good vs. evil. As a Christian, I CANT say "Oh well. maybe its true, maybe not". THis is criticle. Bozarth is absolutely right! If evolution is true, we might as well throw it all away. Our faith means nothing.

Dont fret though, they got nothin'

[Sean 94z28]

That link convinced me. Im an atheist now

I knew that would be the one to win ya over.

Actually I am really not trying change any beliefs (that only happens on a personal level). I am respectfully suggesting that all religious texts were written and interpreted by very flawed humans. To take them literally, as a historical text, and not as strictly a spiritual/personal guide, is also a very human and somewhat understandable error. The reason I say understandable is because of the exceptional quality of the book's content, and the extremely dire consequences of being wrong(eternal fire).

Let me bring up a legitimate concern:
If an undisputable piece of evolutionary evidence was uncovered in a creation-science dig, would it be shared with the entire scientific community?

Do you think a legitimate university funded scientific dig (with participants from many religious and cultural backgrounds)would cover up a piece of significant religious evidence?

TraceZ brought up the Laws of gravity earlier......now im not trying to pick on him, but it amazes me how many people think that evolution is just as solid as the Law of Gravity; .

Wow! I guess Tracez and I both missed the creationists' discovery of the source of gravity. I too, thought only its measured effects were LAW. In fact the THEORIES behind gravity in science are considered MUCH LESS solid than evolutionary theory. Like the moments right around Big Bang (give or take a hundred billion years)and the ealiest moments of evolutionary life, some things really are on the fringe of our knowledge.

To say that Creation science is 3 words is ridiculous.

Of course it is. We are both using some sensationalism to spice up the debate.

Anybody else changing sides with N20?
Sean

[fastTa]

Believe? Without proof, I dont believe anything completely without proof. The best I can do is believe there is a possibility. I do believe we all have an energy in our bodies. That is proven. I'm not sure if that is a soul, but I do think there is something there.

From talking to you in the past, I've come to the conclusion that you are a pretty stand up guy and a great father and husband to boot (don't on me ), I'm quite sure that you feel certain that you love your wife. That would be to say that you truly believe that you love her. In one my previous posts I was placing the emphasis on faith in love, NOT the particular person place or thing you love. You say you don't believe anything without proof yet you agreed that we cannot physically prove love.

Good points. Love requires faith.

So how do you so strongly believe that you love your wife without physical proof that love does indeed exist?

[Sean 94z28]

Why am I so passionate about this debate? Im sure alot of guys are thinking: "Give it up!" I cant.

And what does Sean have to gain by not giving up? Maybe to fullfill a selfish thirst for knowledge. I am not sure. One thing I do believe in: the collective good of humanity and our ability to genuinely care about one another. How does religon threaten such a simplistic belief?

The president (whom I support on most issues) is using his religious beliefs to unjustly limit scientific progress in the area of stem cell research. If you'd like to see America take a back seat to the rest of the world in the field of biology (and other sciences if you allow religion to dictate what you get to learn), then keep on supporting him on the fear-of-god, 2800 year old, closed-minded, and disrespectful of every non-fundementalist Christian in the world, OPINION.

If you have ever cared about someone who got a bad wrap in life (blind, CP, MS, the list is long) through not fault of their own, think again if you support our leader on this CRITICAL issue.

Good Day!
Sean

[fastTa]

Actually I am really not trying change any beliefs (that only happens on a personal level). I am respectfully suggesting that all religious texts were written and interpreted by very flawed humans. To take them literally, as a historical text, and not as strictly a spiritual/personal guide, is also a very human and somewhat understandable error. The reason I say understandable is because of the exceptional quality of the book's content, and the extremely dire consequences of being wrong(eternal fire).
Sean

If we as Christians believe that our existince here on earth is the result of God's actions, and that we believe that we are spirits having a human experience and not humans having a spirutual experience, then it is easy to come to the conclusion that if it was in God's will and power to translate into written text his laws and/or beliefs, that He would have so empowered the "translator" so that at that point in time he was free of any human error. Do you really think God would have allowed otherwise?

Let me bring up a legitimate concern:
If an undisputable piece of evolutionary evidence was uncovered in a creation-science dig, would it be shared with the entire scientific community?

Undisputable to whom? The entire premise of your arguments toward religion as whole suggest that they are relative.

Do you think a legitimate university funded scientific dig (with participants from many religious and cultural backgrounds)would cover up a piece of significant religious evidence?

Sean

Do you think a cop would not report the entire amount of drug money recovered from a bust?

Wow! I guess Tracez and I both missed the creationists' discovery of the source of gravity. I too, thought only its measured effects were LAW. In fact the THEORIES behind gravity in science are considered MUCH LESS solid than evolutionary theory. Like the moments right around Big Bang (give or take a hundred billion years)and the ealiest moments of evolutionary life, some things really are on the fringe of our knowledge.
Sean

The effects of gravity or anything else involving physics for that matter can be measured. We use tools to do that. Then we use mathematics to prove the cause of that particular effect based upon the gathered data from that particular tool used to take the measurements. In the case of gravity, the cause of the gravity is due to molecular attraction caused by the inherant interactions of valence electrons among various atoms. So without going deeper into quantum mechanics, the effects of gravity AND it's cause are mathematical law, NOT theory.

[Sean 94z28]

So how do you so strongly believe that you love your wife without physical proof that love does indeed exist?

Should a person follow their heart? Or their religion?
My wife is from Iran. Her home is devoid of personal and religious freedom because of extremists. Her mixed religon parents fled, leaving behind everything they owned, due to the very real threat of death (an assasin came to their home after the revolution and luckily did not kill her father). Her father was a Muslim university professer, her mother a Christian housewife. Now she is proudly American, and values our freedoms more than I can understand. So much she would fully back our son if he chose to join the military. Even to overthrow the Iranian mullahs!

Extreme religion is bad!

Sean

[N20LT4Bird]

I knew that would be the one to win ya over.

Actually I am really not trying change any beliefs (that only happens on a personal level). I am respectfully suggesting that all religious texts were written and interpreted by very flawed humans. To take them literally, as a historical text, and not as strictly a spiritual/personal guide, is also a very human and somewhat understandable error. The reason I say understandable is because of the exceptional quality of the book's content, and the extremely dire consequences of being wrong(eternal fire).

Nice answer to that, Kevin

Let me bring up a legitimate concern:
If an undisputable piece of evolutionary evidence was uncovered in a creation-science dig, would it be shared with the entire scientific community?

Do you think a legitimate university funded scientific dig (with participants from many religious and cultural backgrounds)would cover up a piece of significant religious evidence?

100% sure of it. Creationist come out with things all the time that get swept under the rug. Furthermore, there are many fabrications from the evolutionists ie. Herperopithecus - the missing link they built from a pigs tooth, or the other missing link (name escapes me) that they made from a pygmy chimp These werent "mistakes" , they were fabrications becasue they were so desperate to push the cause.

Wow! I guess Tracez and I both missed the creationists' discovery of the source of gravity. I too, thought only its measured effects were LAW. In fact the THEORIES behind gravity in science are considered MUCH LESS solid than evolutionary theory. Like the moments right around Big Bang (give or take a hundred billion years)and the ealiest moments of evolutionary life, some things really are on the fringe of our knowledge.

Again, nice answer Kevin

Of course it is. We are both using some sensationalism to spice up the debate.

Anybody else changing sides with N20?
Sean

Whats that supposed to mean?

[fastTa]

Should a person follow their heart? Or their religion?
Sean

If you are asking for my opinion, then my answer to your question is this. Neither.

A person should use their heart to follow their religion.

[Sean 94z28]

Whats that supposed to mean?

I was joking about your comment that you switched sides. I was asking if anybody else was switching too. When we all know that nobody is changing a persons entire belief system based on a friendly internet debate.