Loose Change-9-11-01-DISCUSS

[ConElite]

In the angle the plane hit, It is just about impossible for it to go through the , I believe 3 rings of the building. There was also no Plane parts anywhere. There was only one picture taken of a plane part. A part of an engine. Designers of the plane clearly stated that those part was not from their plane.

With all do respect Joe, but your telling that Regardless of the fact that those wings weigh thousands of pounds, Once they hit they hit the building they completely disappeared or disintegrated? And how the wings "Clipped" the light posts, Yet no damage to the posts were visible in pictures taken at the scene? They all look like they were unbolted and placed down on the floor.

[Steel2686]

Also keep in mind that the plane is made of aluminum, it is hollow and fragile. The fact that is stays together in forward flight is due to the structural design. Move the plane off axis at speed and the slightest stike could cause catastophic failure of the stucture. You see, airplanes are a very different animal than people realize.

This is a solid example. Planes are built on the egg theory. Try crushing an egg with your hand long ways. It's extremely hard to do. Turn the egg sideways and it takes very little effort.

They need to be light in order to use less propulsion to move. Planes only need to be strong while moving in one direction... Forward. They were never meant to be durable when traveling sideways because, well, if the plane is going sideways, it's pretty much screwed anyway.

[Joe 1320]

With all do respect Joe, but your telling that Regardless of the fact that those wings weigh thousands of pounds, Once they hit they hit the building they completely disappeared or disintegrated? And how the wings "Clipped" the light posts, Yet no damage to the posts were visible in pictures taken at the scene? They all look like they were unbolted and placed down on the floor.

Have you ever seen what happens to an aluminum plane on a direct impact? The debris field becomes a concentrated area of itty bitty pieces. You will only see a large debris field on a low incidence angle of attack where you don't strike the ground and bury, you tumble.

The part of physics that you aren't taking into account is that the Pentagon weighes a hell of alot more than a Jumbo Jet. The kinetic energy of the jet does not overcome the mass of the building so the airframe disintegrates upon impact, transferring energy into the building. Large and dense objects like the engines will penetrate farther than the aluminum skin and structural supports which fracture and compact. Add to that, aluminum has a low melting point, bends and distorts easily and has low mass.

The other factiod is that much of the weight in a Jumbo Jet is liquid. The fuel is liquid, the passengers are mostly liquid too.

[Christopherrr]

I don't know about y'all, but I sure do see a plane...

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

[Joe 1320]

I don't know about y'all, but I sure do see a plane...

Well....... certain parts anyway.


That photo is exactly what you would expect to see. A few aluminum skin parts that sheared away, a fairly small concentrated impact area, a large fire from the huge amount of fuel.

[ConElite]

I don't know about y'all, but I sure do see a plane...

That's one point they made in the movie. After a high speed impact and the amount of fuel that plane had. No Engines were ever recovered, Tail Sections or landing gear which in all reality would have some what been protected up in the plane. Instead they hauled away a Semi with a huge box thing covered with a blue tarp. Why the secrets?

The only thing they had was that one "Very Shiny" "Clean" PC of metal. After a high speed fire crash you would think it would have burnt marks.

[Christopherrr]

That's one point they made in the movie. After a high speed impact and the amount of fuel that plane had. No Engines were ever recovered, Tail Sections or landing gear which in all reality would have some what been protected up in the plane. Instead they hauled away a Semi with a huge box thing covered with a blue tarp. Why the secrets?

Protected? That's like saying, you're in the car and you'll be protected if you slammed into a wall going 100mph.

It's safe to say they covered it for respect...if you had loved one on the plane, would you want everyone snapping pictures of the wreakage...I wouldn't.



More reading:

FACT: When American Airlines Flight 77 hit the Pentagon's exterior wall, Ring E, it created a hole approximately 75 ft. wide, according to the ASCE Pentagon Building Performance Report. The exterior facade collapsed about 20 minutes after impact, but ASCE based its measurements of the original hole on the number of first-floor support columns that were destroyed or damaged. Computer simulations confirmed the findings.

Why wasn't the hole as wide as a 757's 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan? A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University. In this case, one wing hit the ground; the other was sheared off by the force of the impact with the Pentagon's load-bearing columns, explains Sozen, who specializes in the behavior of concrete buildings. What was left of the plane flowed into the structure in a state closer to a liquid than a solid mass. "If you expected the entire wing to cut into the building," Sozen tells PM, "it didn't happen."

The tidy hole in Ring C was 12 ft. wide — not 16 ft. ASCE concludes it was made by the jet's landing gear, not by the fuselage.

[ConElite]

Protected? That's like saying, you're in the car and you'll be protected if you slammed into a wall going 100mph.

Why would the Landing gear be protected? Not protected from damage but protected enough for it to not "Disintegrate" upon impact just like your store says (below)

The tidy hole in Ring C was 12 ft. wide — not 16 ft. ASCE concludes it was made by the jet's landing gear, not by the fuselage.

They might of covered up that container but never did they release why it was covered. Nothing at all was recovered from the plane besides that piece of skin that I talked about before and that one piece of engine that the Airplane manufacturer stated was not part of their plane. Like I quoted above, The Landing gear made it all the way through and caused that hole in your picture according to the reports but no landing gear was recovered from the site and or examined in a later date.

Why were the security videos taken from the hotel across the highway by the FBI minutes after the "Plane hit" the Pentagon. There was one camera pointed right at the spot that the Pentagon was hit.

[Joe 1320]

That's one point they made in the movie. After a high speed impact and the amount of fuel that plane had. No Engines were ever recovered, .

False. I was glued to all the events and I clearly remember engine/engines being located and metioned. As a matter of fact, comments were made as to how far the mass had penetrated the building where most of the less dense material shattered and compacted in the outer rings of the building. Perhaps whole engines were not found, but definately large chucks identified as engine material.

[Joshu]

The point I am trying to make is why were the videos that were confiscated not released? There is no obvious security risk because we have plenty videos of the WTC planes. Why not release it and everybody shuts up?

[ConElite]

False. I was glued to all the events and I clearly remember engine/engines being located and metioned. As a matter of fact, comments were made as to how far the mass had penetrated the building where most of the less dense material shattered and compacted in the outer rings of the building. Perhaps whole engines were not found, but definately large chucks identified as engine material.

They recovered one of the center hug that holds the Blades. On there you can see these holes on it. (I did a search for the picture but im at work so im limited) Those holes have a raised area in the shape of a triangle. The Planes engines were not designed like that. The PLane man. stated this themselves. I clearly remember like I said before, That where the Engines are located on the wings They would have made a good amount of damage on the building. Instead there was one whole, that was made trhough a number of the walls, Which they claim was the landing gear (Which was actually never recovered).

[Steel2686]

Why were the security videos taken from the hotel across the highway by the FBI minutes after the "Plane hit" the Pentagon. There was one camera pointed right at the spot that the Pentagon was hit.

Here's where the conspiracy theory gets wacky.

If the Government was really resposible, and this was all planned, don't you think they would have those security cameras shut off and/or confiscated long before the plane hit? Taking them minutes after it hit would just seem fishy if they were actually up to something.

[Joshu]

Simple. I can tell you from a flight dynamics perspective. Keeping a 300-400mph airplane on a direct target is a biotch. I seriuosly doubt anything but a very experienced pilot is going to be able to put a jumbo jet on a specific spot with the wings exactly level. That means that likely the plane would not have hit the way the photochopped examples show. I could see the plane very easily being overcontrolled and coming in with enough yaw to strike the building in a way that would cause the damage exactly as seen in the photos.

Then wouldn't the wing hit the ground?

[Joe 1320]

Why would the Landing gear be protected? Not protected from damage but protected enough for it to not "Disintegrate" upon impact just like your store says (below)



They might of covered up that container but never did they release why it was covered. Nothing at all was recovered from the plane besides that piece of skin that I talked about before and that one piece of engine that the Airplane manufacturer stated was not part of their plane. Like I quoted above, The Landing gear made it all the way through and caused that hole in your picture according to the reports but no landing gear was recovered from the site and or examined in a later date.

Why were the security videos taken from the hotel across the highway by the FBI minutes after the "Plane hit" the Pentagon. There was one camera pointed right at the spot that the Pentagon was hit.

The landing gear are not protected, they are very solid, dense and have high relative mass. Parts of that can take an incredible impact, may break, but will not shatter into itty bitty parts.


I think people are grasping at straws and you appear to be buying into it. Just because wreckage was covered up and hauled away for analysis, people say that it didn't exist because they couldn't see under the tarp. Others hear that nobody saw the wreckage removed conspire to say that the wreckage never existed in the first place. It's an endless cycle. Perhaps because we don't see the bodies of the soldiers, were're not losing them in the war.


FYI,.......anytime something happens in an area, all camera recordings in the vicinity are confiscated and analized. How do you think so many criminals get caught in parking lots? There are cameras everywhere and sometimes it takes something obscure somewhere to catch the correct angle. Just last year, a 10 year old girl disappeared in St. Pete on her way home. Police confiscated all video recordings of buisnesses in the area and guess what? A car wash camera caught the abduction on film. That film was used to convict the SOB for murder.

[Joshu]

Here's where the conspiracy theory gets wacky.

If the Government was really resposible, and this was all planned, don't you think they would have those security cameras shut off and/or confiscated long before the plane hit? Taking them minutes after it hit would just seem fishy if they were actually up to something.

Which is why I wonder why don't they just release the tapes and everyone shuts up?
BTW I am liking the way this disussion is staying civil