GOBAMA!!!

[Bug Lover]

Jeff's quotes from the amendments to the constitution got me to go read some of the constitution. I think EVERYONE forgets one biggy - we are not supposed to be a democracy, we are supposed to be a republic.

Article. IV. - The States - http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Article4

Section 4 - Republican government

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

Republic
republic n 1 : a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and is usually a president; also : a nation or other political unit having such a government 2 : a government in which supreme power is held by the citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives governing according to law; also : a nation or other political unit having such a form of government Source: NMW

In the context of the United States, both definitions apply.

[bru333]

Jeff's quotes from the amendments to the constitution got me to go read some of the constitution. I think EVERYONE forgets one biggy - we are not supposed to be a democracy, we are supposed to be a republic.
{snip}

In the context of the United States, both definitions apply.

Modern Language Association (MLA):
"republic." The American HeritageŽ New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2005. 30 Oct. 2008.

A form of government in which power is explicitly vested in the people, who in turn exercise their power through elected representatives. Today, the terms republic and democracy are virtually interchangeable, but historically the two differed. Democracy implied direct rule by the people, all of whom were equal, whereas republic implied a system of government in which the will of the people was mediated by representatives, who might be wiser and better educated than the average person. In the early American republic, for example, the requirement that voters own property and the establishment of institutions such as the Electoral College were intended to cushion the government from the direct expression of the popular will.

[Jeff_in_Atl]

"who might be wiser"

Boy isn't that the truth these days.

[3800_Firebird]

Lest anyone forget that during the Bush years the economy still grew despite what you may think right now due to the bank crisis.

Obama's socialist views on government should not be allowed to seed here in the states. Socialism leads to communism leads to totalitarianism.

We need to have at least two party rule in this country. A democrat dominated government is not good, nor is a Republican dominated government.

Unfortunately, the ill informed voter base is so polarized that only two parties gain favor and we are left often to vote for the lesser of two evils.

You people voting for Obama think that McCain has just been attacking Obama to be mean don't know the real Obama. There are serious concerns that the media has not addressed, nor any other credible source:

1. His connections to and common views with known domestic terrorists
2. His real birth certificate (is he actually a US citizen??)
3. The fact he has not managed anything that translates to running anything.
4. The grand facade that has been constructed to hide a radical leftist, as evidenced by the careful choice of words by the candidate.

These are only 4 unanswered questions.

You people voting for Obama better realize that there are not enough wealthy individuals in this country to pay for all the poor people to have significantly more than they already do. That doesn't account for the jobs that will leave when these wealthy individuals, who are wealthy because they run successful business that employ the poor-to-middle-class people, get the heck out of profitable business because of taxation.

It's already occuring in anticipation of Obama's win. Large companies that stand to lose will undoubtable have to downsize because the government will be swiping more money that would otherwise be used to pay employees.

Will Obama lower the middle-class tax rate? Yes. The problem is not that, it is the expiration of the Bush tax cuts that have spurred growth. They will expire in 2010, at which point even the middle class will suffer more than the Obama tax cut will afford.

**So if you are for government getting its already big nose even further into your life, vote a democrat in where-ever you can because that is what will happen with today's fine crop of democrats.**

It saddens me that we live in a time where success is punished by the government in the form of taxes. IMO, income tax should be abolished and a use based tax instituted. You only get taxed on the money you spend rather than how much you make on paper.

[AmericanZ28]

Actually I am a Libertarian. I would be voting for Bob Bar but the stakes are too high in the election to let Obama get elected so I am voting for who I think has the best chance of beating him. I will change a words to your sentence and retype it here. "I've read a lot of your posts. It seems to me that you're just a bias democrat and no matter who runs in that party, that's who you're going to vote for."

Jeff, I like you. I think you have really good insight on a lot of issues, but if I've ever seen a puppet for the Republican party, you'd have to be it. I dont think I've ever seen a serious out on your part for anything the current administration has ever done. And blaming the housing market crisis solely on the Clinton administration? What's next? Are you going to tell us Sean Hannity is NOT an anti-semi? You know what, I would be really be interested in hearing an un-biased, full on take of McCain on your part.

[1slo_camaro]

and the political debate begins!!!! its only been a day or so and we are freaking 3 pages in yea lets see if we can get 10 pages into the thread.


not a good idea to start this thread lol

[Joshu]

Let's vote for someone who lost to George Bush!

[AmericanZ28]

Let's vote for someone who lost to George Bush!

Im with that!

[Al 96 Ram Air T/A]

Quite the contrary...posts (and discussions) like this need to exist to hopefully enlighten those to blind to see the truth. I align myself with Conservative views. Yeah...that tends to mean Republican, but I really don't identify with some of the staunch Republican doctrines.

There's too much at stake here. I've lived under a one party system (NJ) for too many years not to fight for what I know to be true. For too long, the Democrats have portrayed themselves as being the poor-man's party while the Republicans have been portrayed as the party of the rich. This is so far from the truth. ALL politicians are rich...they truly don't live in our world. If you believe the Democrats care any more for the poor than the republicans...you're crazy.

So then, the whole basis for my vote is one of facts. We know who Obama is. We know who McCain is. All things being equal, I cannot stand by and watch the country my ancestors chose to start a new life in ruined by those with limited experience and lack of vision. Obama will not make my life better. And quite frankly, that's all that matters to me.

[gimp19]

Lest anyone forget that during the Bush years the economy still grew despite what you may think right now due to the bank crisis.

Obama's socialist views on government should not be allowed to seed here in the states. Socialism leads to communism leads to totalitarianism.

We need to have at least two party rule in this country. A democrat dominated government is not good, nor is a Republican dominated government.

Unfortunately, the ill informed voter base is so polarized that only two parties gain favor and we are left often to vote for the lesser of two evils.

You people voting for Obama think that McCain has just been attacking Obama to be mean don't know the real Obama. There are serious concerns that the media has not addressed, nor any other credible source:

1. His connections to and common views with known domestic terrorists
2. His real birth certificate (is he actually a US citizen??)
3. The fact he has not managed anything that translates to running anything.
4. The grand facade that has been constructed to hide a radical leftist, as evidenced by the careful choice of words by the candidate.

These are only 4 unanswered questions.

You people voting for Obama better realize that there are not enough wealthy individuals in this country to pay for all the poor people to have significantly more than they already do. That doesn't account for the jobs that will leave when these wealthy individuals, who are wealthy because they run successful business that employ the poor-to-middle-class people, get the heck out of profitable business because of taxation.

It's already occuring in anticipation of Obama's win. Large companies that stand to lose will undoubtable have to downsize because the government will be swiping more money that would otherwise be used to pay employees.

Will Obama lower the middle-class tax rate? Yes. The problem is not that, it is the expiration of the Bush tax cuts that have spurred growth. They will expire in 2010, at which point even the middle class will suffer more than the Obama tax cut will afford.

**So if you are for government getting its already big nose even further into your life, vote a democrat in where-ever you can because that is what will happen with today's fine crop of democrats.**

It saddens me that we live in a time where success is punished by the government in the form of taxes. IMO, income tax should be abolished and a use based tax instituted. You only get taxed on the money you spend rather than how much you make on paper.

I must be blind to me it seems like bush has done the complete oposite, and his B.S tax cuts are just driving up the countries debt and so is this B.S war. The idiot has completly destroyed the U.S economy although I'm sure his family and friends arent feeling a thing nor could they care less. I know I'll be in a better mood when, I get laid off from job witch has been cutting back drasticly the last 3years or maybe the whole company will go out of buisness first. Either way who ever gets in office is gonna have their work cutout for them. I'm starting to get sick of hearing things like "its not bush's fault" what the hell is his job then, professional golfer

[markd79ta]

Quite the contrary...posts (and discussions) like this need to exist to hopefully enlighten those to blind to see the truth. I align myself with Conservative views. Yeah...that tends to mean Republican, but I really don't identify with some of the staunch Republican doctrines.

There's too much at stake here. I've lived under a one party system (NJ) for too many years not to fight for what I know to be true. For too long, the Democrats have portrayed themselves as being the poor-man's party while the Republicans have been portrayed as the party of the rich. This is so far from the truth. ALL politicians are rich...they truly don't live in our world. If you believe the Democrats care any more for the poor than the republicans...you're crazy.

So then, the whole basis for my vote is one of facts. We know who Obama is. We know who McCain is. All things being equal, I cannot stand by and watch the country my ancestors chose to start a new life in ruined by those with limited experience and lack of vision. Obama will not make my life better. And quite frankly, that's all that matters to me.

I agree with all that Al said here. I could care less about either party. I certainly don't label myself liberal or conservative in the "American" context. As a student of political thought, I am definitely aLockean or Jeffersonian in the "American" application of Locke's writings. I am extremely conservative when it comes to our written contract, the constitution, and the limits placed on government within that contract. I become extremelyagitated when politician's or in recent history judicial activism circumvent that contract for their pet project or program.

I do not like the modern Democrats because of their constituencies, and lets face it, the two parties are coalitions of political groups or sub parties. Marxism rears its ugly head in unions, environmentalism, liberation theology, and gun control advocacy not to mention I hate trial lawyers. These groups are entrenched in the Democratic party and the policies pushed by these groups erode my individual freedoms. Furthermore, I do not believe in the entitlement beliefs of modern Americans. We are not entitled to anything but our freedom to pursue are ownopportunities . I do not believe in a nanny state and I never will. I have no problem with letting people fail or picking myself up from my own failure. Like a child, people will not learn unless they fail and face the consequences. The government should not be a vehicle of raping those who have achieved in order to rescue those who haven't.

Republicans are far from perfect and I could make a career out of research on all their mistakes. However, we are discussing the lesser of two evils. R gets 50% approval from me where D generally gets 0%.

[AmericanZ28]

Republicans are far from perfect and I could make a career out of research on all their mistakes. However, we are discussing the lesser of two evils. R gets 50% approval from me where D generally gets 0%.

It seems like many Republicans are reluctant to call themselves Republicans these days. Even on this forum, where that vast majority of it's members have "Republican" views and agree with 99.9% of the stuff that the Republicans dish out, people are calling themselves everything but Republican. We got Libertarians, Independants, Disgruntled Democrats, but not a single Republican. And I have to say, when you COMPLETLY disagree with one party and completly agree with another, there's something wrong with you. I think both candidates have a lot to offer, and the lesser of these two evils is Barack Obama. And enough about McCains "Experience." He's openly admited to not being as experienced as the Reps make him out to be, not to mention he's the biggest flip flopper since Kerry. Observe...........

[Jeff_in_Atl]

Jeff, I like you. I think you have really good insight on a lot of issues, but if I've ever seen a puppet for the Republican party, you'd have to be it. I dont think I've ever seen a serious out on your part for anything the current administration has ever done. And blaming the housing market crisis solely on the Clinton administration? What's next? Are you going to tell us Sean Hannity is NOT an anti-semi? You know what, I would be really be interested in hearing an un-biased, full on take of McCain on your part.

You are only seeing the side of me that is conservative because I am expressing things that are the opposite of your views to try and teach you the truth with facts about what is going on. I don't agree with Republicans about everything. For one I think they are wrong on their beliefs on abortion and that is the #1 core policy of the republican policy. Republican feel that if you are not against abortion then you are not a republican.

The republicans especially George Bush, along with the democrats in the congress and senate, have been way out of control with their spending policies. That is one issue McCain has over Obama hands down. McCain has never not one time inserted a spending project on a spending bill. Obama is the second highest in the entire senate. They couldn't be more opposite. If you are tired of seeing spending out of control a vote for Obama would be the wrong choice.

I have to go to work now so no time to write more.

[Jeff_in_Atl]

http://journalism.org/node/13436

[Wild Willy]

Well said, Jeff-

I also consider myself a conservative, something that the Republicans try to court when it meets their agenda. The original constitution said the federal government could protect the borders and send mail- and they aren't even doing so well on the borders, lately. My grandmother could remember when the first income tax was established, to repay the war debt after the great war, WW1- it was supposed to expire, but politicians never give back what they manage to take from us- that is particularly why I find the patriot act so troubling. Wan't it Jefferson who said "He who governs least, governs best?"

Maybe, just maybe, we need some government regulation in regards to some of the big multi-national companies, who's only goal is corporate wealth- greed- Not just banks, but maybe some of the oil companies- energy is much like electricty or the phone, a standard commodity for modern living, and maybe there should be a Public Service Commission to regulate the rate of profit they make- although, in general, I don't like the government sticking it's nose into anything. And laws that don't have the popular support of the governed are wrong, and won't be successful- look at prohibition-

While I admire the lofty goals of the Dems, I think many of their social programs shouldn't come from 'big government' mandating what is right for us, their little pets, but should come from the grass roots up- if enough people agree for the need of socialized medicine or work-fare (as opposed to welefare) programs, let them lobby or pass voter referendums. While a good leader may be like a weather vane and point the country in the right direction, I don't think it is up to any politician to force the country in the direction they want, irregardless of how the citizens feel. Witness this massive bailout debacle, where voter opinion was running about 80% against, and was passed by congress once enough pork was attached to it- Things like immigrantion, or NAFTA need to have the will of the public measured, not forced upon us-

Enough of my rant- I'll get off the soap box- likely I won't change any body's mind, but if I can make you think about some of these things, I would be happy-