NFB: The Passion

[TraceZ]

Originally posted by N20LT4Bird
I am going to try and explain this, so bear with me. Please take the time and read this with an open mind:

For God to PERFECT, he must be all loving, all reighteous, yet all just at the same time. If he were to let everyone into heaven, he would be all loving, but NOT all just. Could you stand next to adolf hitler in heaven? Probably not. That would not be just. God views us in a similiar light as adolf hitler. He cant stand to have us in his prescense due to our sin. Remember he is perfectly holy - meaning without sin. So, because God is perfectly Holy, in order for Him to be perfectly just, God would have to cast everyone with ANY sin into hell.

So, in order to remain perfectly loving, but still just and reightous at the same time., God sent his Son Jesus to take the penalty for our sin. He died in our place. FOr God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son. God inflicted the penalty for our sin on HIS Son. SO, you see, it is a slap in the face to God to say he is not fair, becasue he is PERFECTLY fair and just and loving and reighteous, holy etc... Thats what make Him God. All He asks of us is for us to accept His perfect gift.

Now as far as those who have not heard....they will be held accountable for what they know. The people in the old testament hadnt heard of Jesus. He had not been born. But they knew they had a sin problem and looked to God for mercy, in other words, they looked forward to Jesus.

I have heard stories from missionaries who went into villages that have never heard of Jesus. The missionaries presented the Gospel and the village people said they knew it. They knew of theri own sin problem and were relying on the mercy of an all Powerful God, they jsut didnt know the name of their Saviour until the missionaries told them. Those people were righteous in Gods sight even though they never knew the name of Jesus.

So, is it possible to accept the possibility of his perfect gift, but to remain skeptical? I can be open mined to the possibility, but I cannot force myself to accept it as flat out fact. I must also be open minded to many other possibilities. I do not feel we as Humans are knowlegable enough to know for sure. Maybe in a coupe billion years?

I'm with Jay in hoping that God is truely fair and just, and has great mercy and insight to see who was of a good mind and soul. (if he does in fact exist)

[N20LT4Bird]

It is by FAITH that you are saved. Everyone in the Bible that was justified before God, had faith in Him. Jesus commanded us to have the "faith of a child". I guess thats why it is so hard to give it up sometimes. The head knowledge of what Christ has done does not save. The bible says even the demons know WHO Jesus is, and they shudder. Knowing WHO Christ is and trusting Him as Saviour are two different things.

For example, you can look at a chair and know in your head that it will probably hold you up, but you dont actually put your faith in that chair until you sit in it. God is asking you to "sit". Thats what he wants.

He gave his Son up and put the weight of our sin on Him, to be "fair". Out of all the major world religions, Christianity is the only one where we dont have to "do" anything to have fellowship - God has done it all - He is the one reaching down to us.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by TraceZ
...
I'm with Jay in hoping that God is truely fair and just, and has great mercy and insight to see who was of a good mind and soul. (if he does in fact exist)...

That isn't quite what I was saying. I applied that rationale to infant mortality, or young children who die before ever being brought the word of God.

But one thing you have to remember, my rationale really means absolutely nothing. In my earthly, fallible, human ways I may not see what is truly just. Who am I to question God's judgment?

One thing you must acknowledge, is that if there is an all-powerful being, you damn well better please him. It doesn't matter if God randomly selected people for Heaven, and cast good men down to Hell. Even if that were the case, he is still the final authority and final word. There is no one to judge him, so inevitably, what he says is ultimately just. Part of coming to this realization is the humility that we do not, and cannot possess all the answers or the level of understanding of God. We are weak, sinful, and downright stupid in comparison to an all-powerful being. What appears "just" to us on earth, may be completely opposite of what is truly just in Heaven. You simply cannot deny that if an all-powerful being exists, he doesn't give a damn about what you determine to be "just".

[Sean 94z28]

Thanks again for the stimulating debate! This is likely my last post, as I believe we are approaching an inevitable lack of constructiveness prone to this discussion. Where specifics are discussed and discredited to nobodys satifaction.

Thanks to Tracy for helping to convey points in a common light with mine. Him and I are thinking along extremely similar lines. I concur about the likelihood of other life forms possible in this or other universes. Although, the real evidence is extremely weak that we have ever been visited by another life form.

The acknowledgement your asking for (the existance of God) is very easy to say, easy to consider, even relatively easy to practice (according to your own admission). What I can't force upon myself is true belief. Why would I try to fool myself into thinking that I didn't have serious doubts?

Todd, what am I afraid of? I am afraid of being so absolutely close minded, that I miss the opportunity to discover all the wonders of life, or shut out people who may actually have a valuable contribution to society regardless of faith. I am afraid that a NATURAL catastrophe or a simple human error could take the ones we love from us. Believing in your God will never save them if this is their "fate" or "God's will", according to your belief. And I don't have a problem with the "rules and laws" of a society or religion, generally good guidelines for treating other respectfully. I do have a problem being REQUIRED (as in go to burning hell if you dont) to believe the unbelievable.

Sorry Jay kinda side tracked. Point is, gross wealth (like Mel's) is very far from any kind of just reward for hard work, and is not selfless in any way that I can grasp (opinion). Would Jesus aquire such wealth? Isn't that always the default question. What would he do? I am not the one who needs convincing, I am totally cool with capitalism.

Oh, and heaven is all we need? Guess that's hard to argue huh?

Bird, the disagreement widens. I am perfectly comfortable being held accountable for my own actions. And as with Tracy, I do not believe we near an imaginary punishment/reward system to do right by each other. The lessons in the bible are not unique, in fact they are common. All I am asking is why all or nothing. Why do I have to believe in heaven and hell to believe in your intelligent designer?

The answers to all OUR questions do exist in your religion, because Tracy and I aren't claiming to know anything special. It is just the answers we get do NOT satisfy our requirements for validity.

So I got called out (and failed?), and am now turning it around; So is there any part of the Bible, that the majority of Biblical scholars agree is not literal? Which? How do they know it is a metaphor and that other parts are not? And it doesn't count if the text specifically says it is a story or example. Like the 7 days, biblical scholars mostly believe what? Is even this mutually agreed upon?

Now tell me this. Are there any good examples of real "divine" knowledge in the book? Like where something specific was said that couln't be proven until now. For example, if Jesus had suggested the world that was round. Or that the earth is moving around the sun. Seems to me, the only thing the Bible knows is what is was attempting to explain. Kinda like their best shot at a science.

It is far from faith that allows us to sit in a chair. It is experience and knowledge. Would you sit in a one-legged chair, or one with invisible legs?

And now the points are getting too scattered to address. In one post, I wouldn't want to see Hitler in heaven, in another post we are not re-united with anyone in heaven.

So since a couple plugs have been given, here is mine:

"The Demon-Haunted World", by Carl Sagan. 1997.

Lastly, with deception so easy in our amazing world. How would you know if your savior came again? Touch heal wouldn't cut it, cause B. Hinn does that already (see that media trashing your religions credibilty, or is Hinn really a healer, hmmm). Would he let modern scientists study him? Would he do miracles? Do miracles happen today? Care you name a modern miracle that defies rational explanation?

Good Day,
Sean

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by Sean 94z28
........
Sorry Jay kinda side tracked. Point is, gross wealth (like Mel's) is very far from any kind of just reward for hard work, and is not selfless in any way that I can grasp (opinion). Would Jesus aquire such wealth? Isn't that always the default question. What would he do? I am not the one who needs convincing, I am totally cool with capitalism.........

I would like to know how much Mel Gibson donates annually to charities - I am guessing it is a pretty staggering amount. I would also like to know what his plans are for money made off of this film.

Now, to adress the issue of "just reward for hard work". Actors and sports figures alike - who are payed monumental salaries - are often seen as "overpayed". But are they really? The answer is no. They are paid the fair wage for the amount that they contribute to the business they work for. Just like you or I am. If we brought millions upon millions of dollars to our company the way Alex Rodriguez does to MLB, then you better believe we are going to deserve to be paid in millions upon millions of dollars -- because the fact is that very few people possess the capability to perform like that. We always pay a premium for a scarce resource.

Would Jesus acquire such wealth? Jesus did as God called him to do. Jesus's gift was one of spirituality and leadership -- not stopping ground balls, hitting homeruns, etc... so we are comparing apples to oranges. One thing I do believe though, is that Jesus used his God-given abilities to the fullest extent possible. Had Jesus been faced with an enormous amount of wealth because of it, he absolutely would have graciously donated A LOT of it away. Back to Mel -- the man likely donates more money to charities in a year than the average American makes... I have no problem with someone who is famous and wealthy due to using their abilities -- as long as they do not forget the importance of giving back.

[TraceZ]

Originally posted by Sean 94z28
Thanks again for the stimulating debate! This is likely my last post, as I believe we are approaching an inevitable lack of constructiveness prone to this discussion. Where specifics are discussed and discredited to nobodys satifaction.

Thanks to Tracy for helping to convey points in a common light with mine. Him and I are thinking along extremely similar lines. I concur about the likelihood of other life forms possible in this or other universes. Although, the real evidence is extremely weak that we have ever been visited by another life form.

The acknowledgement your asking for (the existance of God) is very easy to say, easy to consider, even relatively easy to practice (according to your own admission). What I can't force upon myself is true belief. Why would I try to fool myself into thinking that I didn't have serious doubts?

Todd, what am I afraid of? I am afraid of being so absolutely close minded, that I miss the opportunity to discover all the wonders of life, or shut out people who may actually have a valuable contribution to society regardless of faith. I am afraid that a NATURAL catastrophe or a simple human error could take the ones we love from us. Believing in your God will never save them if this is their "fate" or "God's will", according to your belief. And I don't have a problem with the "rules and laws" of a society or religion, generally good guidelines for treating other respectfully. I do have a problem being REQUIRED (as in go to burning hell if you dont) to believe the unbelievable.

Sorry Jay kinda side tracked. Point is, gross wealth (like Mel's) is very far from any kind of just reward for hard work, and is not selfless in any way that I can grasp (opinion). Would Jesus aquire such wealth? Isn't that always the default question. What would he do? I am not the one who needs convincing, I am totally cool with capitalism.

Oh, and heaven is all we need? Guess that's hard to argue huh?

Bird, the disagreement widens. I am perfectly comfortable being held accountable for my own actions. And as with Tracy, I do not believe we near an imaginary punishment/reward system to do right by each other. The lessons in the bible are not unique, in fact they are common. All I am asking is why all or nothing. Why do I have to believe in heaven and hell to believe in your intelligent designer?

The answers to all OUR questions do exist in your religion, because Tracy and I aren't claiming to know anything special. It is just the answers we get do NOT satisfy our requirements for validity.

So I got called out (and failed?), and am now turning it around; So is there any part of the Bible, that the majority of Biblical scholars agree is not literal? Which? How do they know it is a metaphor and that other parts are not? And it doesn't count if the text specifically says it is a story or example. Like the 7 days, biblical scholars mostly believe what? Is even this mutually agreed upon?

Now tell me this. Are there any good examples of real "divine" knowledge in the book? Like where something specific was said that couln't be proven until now. For example, if Jesus had suggested the world that was round. Or that the earth is moving around the sun. Seems to me, the only thing the Bible knows is what is was attempting to explain. Kinda like their best shot at a science.

It is far from faith that allows us to sit in a chair. It is experience and knowledge. Would you sit in a one-legged chair, or one with invisible legs?

And now the points are getting too scattered to address. In one post, I wouldn't want to see Hitler in heaven, in another post we are not re-united with anyone in heaven.

So since a couple plugs have been given, here is mine:

"The Demon-Haunted World", by Carl Sagan. 1997.

Lastly, with deception so easy in our amazing world. How would you know if your savior came again? Touch heal wouldn't cut it, cause B. Hinn does that already (see that media trashing your religions credibilty, or is Hinn really a healer, hmmm). Would he let modern scientists study him? Would he do miracles? Do miracles happen today? Care you name a modern miracle that defies rational explanation?

Good Day,
Sean

That is a great post, Sean. Like you say, I do not claim to have knowlege that disproves Christ was the messiah. I just cannot fool myself to sit in the chair with no legs. I need to keep an open mind. If at some point science discovers god, I will have no problem accepting him. Maybe someday that will happen, maybe not.

[Joe K. 99 Zeee!!]

I've stayed away from this thread, but it's been interesting reading for sure!

I just finished reading "The Elegent Universe" by Brian Green. After reading it, I am truly astonished as to what we do know about the universe and even more astonished about what we don't know yet and how truly amazing and complex it really is.

There are things out there that we could never dream up in a million years. The book takes no stance on God or Religion, but, far from disproving his existence, it really opens your mind to all the possibilities out there.

Give it a try! I was barely keeping up through a lot of it, some places just lost me completely, but the parts I did understand were mind bending.

[markd79ta]

I think science is great for understanding our physical world/universe. I believe that we can learn a lot about how the world/universe works as well as how it is put together. The one thing that science will never answer is why? Or, who put it together? Science is great for understanding our world, but it will never account for what plane of existence put this world together. In other words, this universe cannot come into existence on its own...something had to create it. There has to be a plane of existence out there that created this world. As human beings of this world...we will never have knowledge of this unless the gap is bridged somehow, or by someone, or by us moving into that world.

"Faith" bridges that gap for believers. Personally, I believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; I believe in the death and resurrection for the atonement of sin, and the life of the world to come. The question is of faith and belief in this. A lot of people look at church, institutions, and rituals with distaste. I think some people are turned off by it which is sad...because these "institutions" are man made institutions in faith...and sometimes lose sight of "Personal Faith" or become subject to human greed and corruption. They are merely a place of fellowship and worship for believers...that is it! ...the old saying "absolute power corrupts absolutely!" Any institution or government is subject to this...and must be put in check by those it represents. I am thankful that I am a believer, that I try to live the moral life that is requested. I fall short frequently, and ask for forgiveness in the process. But, if not for this, I would be one serious a$$; because I am not very nice person by nature.

Anyhow, for the nonbeliever. I see it this way... If you believe and you are wrong then your life is spent in service to others, and is usually pretty good, but when you die, you lose nothing. If you are not a believer and you are wrong, then your life may be good or bad, but when you die, you lose everything. Each person has free will to decide their own fate...make it a good one!

[Craig 94 TA GT]

I too wasn't posting on this thread...it's been a great debate. This has nothing to do with debate itself, but just to throw my reasoning for wanting to see the movie "The Passion." And thanks N20LT4Bird for recommending the movie in your original post!

My friend is a very outgoing Christian who goes to an adult school for Christianity. I, too, am a strong Christian in my beliefs, but not quite as outgoing as him. Anyways, a few years ago, he was at some huge conference in LA. They were having some kind of talks saying we really needed a Christian movement in Hollywood entertainment. To make a long story short, they were praying very hard, and soon enough, heard Mel Gibson was making a movie of Christ.
The reason why I believe the movie to be as completely factual is because Mel said he was inspired by the Holy Spirit. He is also extremely devoted to God - at least from what he says. Now God does talk to us all the time, and I believe Mel was listening. So I personally believe that this is as close to reality as it gets. Now, I am a skeptical person, but, when it comes to a movie so large in proportion, I don't think God would let it be all profit-taking, and far from the truth.
I guess this is just why I want to see it.

[Christopherrr]

Originally posted by TraceZ
That is a great post, Sean. Like you say, I do not claim to have knowlege that disproves Christ was the messiah. I just cannot fool myself to sit in the chair with no legs. I need to keep an open mind. If at some point science discovers god, I will have no problem accepting him. Maybe someday that will happen, maybe not.

That's called faith brother...faith is the substance of things hoped for and evidence of things not seen (hew 11:1).

There has got to be a time when you were in a situation (a bad one for that fact) and you happen to get out of it.

Example (this happened to me a few years back)

I was talking to my girl on the cell going to work. I stop at the light and wait for it to turn green. I can't see traffic because of a big sign at the entrance to my subdivision. Just as the light turns green, she says she has to go and i hang up the phone and look down to put the phone in glove box...I take my eyes off the light, street, everything around me and put the phone up, and as I do so, I white Neon blasts through the light (all of this takes place in less than 3 seconds).

Long story short...if I would have started to go right when the light turned green, I would have been t-boned; and I probably wouldn't be here right now....that to me is evidence not seen.

I don't want to preach, because I'm no where able to...but I know alot of people like that...wait to see proof.

"but without faith it is impossible to please him, for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (hew 11:6)

I don't want to start anything, I love this board and all it's members...that's why I'm here every single day...but to hear people think and talk like that scares me...

Don't think I'm a closed minded Christian, I'm not...I grew up as a Buddist and spend most of teens years not believeing in anything...then with a turn of the clock, I'm a Christian, but that's testament I'd rather share at another time...

Everyone is entitled to there oen personal opinon...I know that, I just though I'd throw my two cents in the bowl.

[TraceZ]

Originally posted by LimTeng99TransAm
Example (this happened to me a few years back)

I was talking to my girl on the cell going to work. I stop at the light and wait for it to turn green. I can't see traffic because of a big sign at the entrance to my subdivision. Just as the light turns green, she says she has to go and i hang up the phone and look down to put the phone in glove box...I take my eyes off the light, street, everything around me and put the phone up, and as I do so, I white Neon blasts through the light (all of this takes place in less than 3 seconds).

I dont think your example means a thing, other than you got lucky.

Here is my example... People miss airplanes every single day. Almost every flight that departs has a couple passengers that missed it and were possibly replaced by others.

When an airplane crashes, and people die... Should the people that missed that flight think god spared them? No way.. it was just the way it happened. Stuff like this happens every day, it is by no means evidence of some sort of devine intervention. It is just statistical law. it is science. no hocus pocus involved.

my opinion, of course

[Christopherrr]

Originally posted by TraceZ
I dont think your example means a thing, other than you got lucky.

Here is my example... People miss airplanes every single day. Almost every flight that departs has a couple passengers that missed it and were possibly replaced by others.

When an airplane crashes, and people die... Should the people that missed that flight think god spared them? No way.. it was just the way it happened. Stuff like this happens every day, it is by no means evidence of some sort of devine intervention. It is just statistical law. it is science. no hocus pocus involved.

my opinion, of course

you feel that, and I feel another...I guess that's where we differ. I love ya though...

[TraceZ]

Originally posted by LimTeng99TransAm
you feel that, and I feel another...I guess that's where we differ. I love ya though...

This thread is awsome. You guys are all great. I've never been able to find a place to share differing opinions like these and not get a fight started. This says something about all of us. I thought we F-body owners were supposed to be unsophisticated rednecks just to brawl? Apparently not so true.

Funny.

Mark.. do you really think you are an a-hole and it is your fear of burning in hell that makes you a nice guy? C'mon now.... I'm sure you were told to do on to others as you would have them do on to you. I dont think you are all that bad

[Joe 1320]

Originally posted by TraceZ
This thread is awsome. You guys are all great. I've never been able to find a place to share differing opinions like these and not get a fight started. This says something about all of us. I thought we F-body owners were supposed to be unsophisticated rednecks just to brawl? Apparently not so true.

Funny.

And it's the moderators and JR that we can thank for that. This is why this place became my home in 97. This group of moderators, while not perfect, is a fantastic balance of common sense, automotive knowledge, ethics and comradery, not to mention the times they stick their neck out when a harder line stance is taken to keep out the trash. I personally think it's great that such a controversial topic can be debated without flames. It is indeed a tribute to the members kicking this this thread around.

[PUREPWR]

This is EXACTLY what we are talking about in my Philosophy101 class at Harper Jr. College. It is the debate over God being all loving, all knowing, and so on. If you want to read a good book debating this ordeal it is called: What is Atheism, by Douglas E. Krueger. Its not a book that tries to persuade you to become an atheist, it just shows the debates over God.