NFB: The Passion

[Cade93TA]

Heres another link

Sean to answer your question about the dinsours in the above video links, they do not address it. I do knoW that John Anckerberg did do a show and they mentioned and addressed that same verses in Job that 'bird mentioned. I will try to find that link for you.
But what they do explain in these videos is that God used numerious animals and living organisms over millions of years in the exact order of the biblical account of the Bible,namely Genesis, to get the to get the atmosphere just right and be able to provide a life supporting environment for humans, His end creation.
I am vaguely generalizing here, the videos explain it better.
Part 7 maily addresses the above generalization the best.

Hey N20LT4Bird ! They talk about the Hebrew word for day, "yom" and its various meanings in part 7

Part 6 Discuses; Did man come from apes?
Mainly talks about how disorganized the proof for evolution is.
Parts 4,5 are about the cosmos and Big Bang theory.
Ya'll can pick and choose.
John Ankerberg Show

[TraceZ]

Originally posted by N20LT4Bird
"Look at Behemoth, which I have made with you......what strength in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly.......his tail sways like a CEDAR.......he ranks FIRST among the works of God."

"Can you pull leviathon in with a fish hook?....any hope of subduing him is false, the mere sight of him is overwhelming.....his back has rows of shields tightly sealed together.....when he rises up, the mighty are terrified, the sword that reaches him has no effect."

Now, these are only parts of the scripture. Read them all for yourself. Some interpret these creatures as elephants or alligators. But, please, an elephant doesnt even have much of a tail at all, much less like a cedar tree. The alligator can caught, and definately not first among the ranks of God. I cant think of many creatures that fit these descriptions.

First off, I respect everyones right to their opinions, and the following is simply MY opinion. Please do not try to "save" me, although I am flattered by any attempts

I've been avoiding this thread, but cant anymore. I'm with Sean. There are too many good people in this world that do not worship Christ as their savior to dismiss them all to hell. Any "God" that would do that, should go to hell himself, and he could not be any God of mine.

As for people existing at the same time dinosours did... that is simply not possible. At no time, ever have human remains been found along side those of a dinosaur, or even in a sediment layer close to that time period, or have human remains been carbon dated that far back.

The big bang was not the beginning. There was no begining. I believe (have faith) that cold empty space exists in all directions forever. Universes exist within that space. The matter in these universes is in an everlasting cycle. They explode, expand, cool off and then gravity pulls them back into a solid mass, where they explode again. Our universe is currently expanding. If you use the doppler principal with light off the other galaxies, it is obvious.
Our universe will eventually colapse on itself, and explode again.
I believe there is an infinite amount of universes, each containing countless galaxies beyond our imagination. I believe our biggest problem as Humans is our lifespan. We die so fast, we never live long enough to become truely wise. If we lived a billion years or so, maybe we would understand a little more. Our lifespan is practically zero compared to universal events.

I also believe we are not alone. In all these universes, intelligent life is common. We as humans are simply grains of sand.

Live life to its fullest
Be a good person
respect those around you.

The same values a bible-thumper would tout, just without the hocus-pocus and thumpin.

[TODD 2000 V6 CAMARO]

Man, Jay...you should turn that post in as an extra credit project. I think you would get an A. Man, it is nice to be able to have this kind of discussion on here and have everyone remain civil about it. I have actually learned alot just from this thread, about both sides of the argument. I have heard alot of Sean's questions and arguments before, but honestly never really knew how to answer them well enough for people. N2O Bird, you seem very knowlegeable about this stuff.
I guess my main question to people who, like Sean, don't seem to want to even give the possibility of there being a God, is this: What are you afraid of? I don't mean this like.."You coward!" But more like...what are you afraid of losing? Freedom? You will never lose your freedom of choice...that is God-given. Time? It takes very little time to simply say "God, if you are there...please come into my life...speak to my heart and let me come to know you." Are you afraid that you will be required to judge others? The bible forbids Christians from Judging others (Granted...there are many who do, but that goes back to the fact that we are all human and therefore make mistakes) Jesus himself said.."Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." In other words, no man save for himself is without sin, so no one other than him is worthy of judging another person.
The bible does, however say that as Christians we are accountable to other Christians...to let each other know when we are doing something that could come between ourselves and God. God is the ultimate Judge, we will all have to stand before him one day...and it's not going to matter whether you believed in him in life or not, you will be on yours knees worshipping and praising him....it is the job of Christians to tell others about Jesus and the Gospels and to try to lead others to god.
Too many non-believers mistakenly see the bible as a book of don'ts, just a bunch of laws and rules ot follow or else you get struck down and sent to hell. But that isn't really the case. The bible is a book of do's. It says simply that if you live your life trying to please God, then you will not want to do the things that lead to death. And your life will be happier and more fulfilling for it, too. It is actually a scientifically proven fact that people who pray and have faith live longer, get over illnesses faster, and are much less likely to be depressed. I'm not necessarily saying that God makes his people live longer, but the simple act of having faith tends to take alot of stress off of a person's life. "I come not just to give life, but to give life more fully."
I guess my message is this: You don't have to do any rituals or anything to become a Christian. John 3:16 says.."For God so loved the world that he gve his only son, that whosover BELIEVE in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." All you have to do is believe, and follow and seek Jesus and you are saved. Simple!! I hope Sean and other who don't believe will take this to heart. God bless.

[TraceZ]

Originally posted by TODD 2000 V6 CAMARO
I guess my main question to people who, like Sean, don't seem to want to even give the possibility of there being a God, is this: What are you afraid of? I don't mean this like.."You coward!" But more like...what are you afraid of losing? Freedom? You will never lose your freedom of choice...that is God-given. Time? It takes very little time to simply say "God, if you are there...please come into my life...speak to my heart and let me come to know you."

Good question.

I am open to the possibility of an almighty being, like a god or such. Maybe even an alien. I simply have no reason to believe yet, no evidence. I know you will say the bible is evidence, but I cannot believe based on that for some reason. It just doesnt have the credibility in my mind.

Every once in a while, I talk to "god", just incase he is there. He never talks back.... Every so often, I look in the sky and say thank you. It is funny, though how when I really need something important, it is there for me. I credit myself and my family for that, though. I think of my god as less of a "cognitive" being and more of a general presence of nature. I wouldnt even call it a god. I practice no religion.


"What if our world is just some alien kids science project?" -me

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by TraceZ

.... I'm with Sean. There are too many good people in this world that do not worship Christ as their savior to dismiss them all to hell. Any "God" that would do that, should go to hell himself, and he could not be any God of mine.

Just a thought to ponder... it might be a bit challenging to read or think about, but please consider it.

After watching a movie like "The Passion" - did it ever occur to you that someone who does not recognize the pain, torture, torment, abuse, and sacrifice that Jesus (God's son) gave us might not be the person that God wants to share his Kingodm with?

[fastTa]

I will make this a fairly concise post. All of these topics being currently and collectively discussed here are being done so within the intellectual parameters of our homo sapien brains.

My point being that even with the largely combined efforts and studies of all the smartest scientists, astrophysicists, astronomers, doctors, theolgians, etc., etc., etc., we are all trying to assimilate a presence far beyond anything we will ever as humans be able to possibly comprehend. This is not to say we shall not as humans continue to study and perform research and to ask ourselves questions about the unknown, but to make any attempts at the specific prospect of proving beyond a reasonable "human" doubt that GOD exists, will witout fail prove to be nothing short of wasted resources.

Have faith that this beautiful world we live in was provided to us by indeed a divine creator!

[TraceZ]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6
Just a thought to ponder... it might be a bit challenging to read or think about, but please consider it.

After watching a movie like "The Passion" - did it ever occur to you that someone who does not recognize the pain, torture, torment, abuse, and sacrifice that Jesus (God's son) gave us might not be the person that God wants to share his Kingodm with?

You base that premise on belief in christian god and events in the bible. Without that belief, your argument is voided. If the man really existed, I truely feel for him. If It is true, and I was suddenly zapped back to that time period I would had died defending what was right.

I just cannot force myself to believe in someting that is unproven, thus I remain eternally open minded to ideas. Who knows what the real truth is. We will likely never live long enough to know.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

The existance of Jesus of Nazareth is a historical fact. It is the question of him being the Messiah that you can debate.

[N20LT4Bird]

Originally posted by TraceZ
There are too many good people in this world that do not worship Christ as their savior to dismiss them all to hell. Any "God" that would do that, should go to hell himself, and he could not be any God of mine.

I guess the thing that I keep in mind is that WE ALL deserve hell. God is perfect. He cannot even look upon sin. We have all sinned and fallen short of His glory. It is only by His grace that any of us will enter HIS heaven. How dare we tell the almighty God of the universe what we deserve or how he should act. God will have compassion on who He chooses to have compassion. He is God and regardless of what others think about the way He operates.

Originally posted by TraceZ
As for people existing at the same time dinosours did... that is simply not possible. At no time, ever have human remains been found along side those of a dinosaur, or even in a sediment layer close to that time period, or have human remains been carbon dated that far back.

Are you SURE about this??? We could argue this to death, but all I ask is that before you make a blanket statement like this, check it out. There is whole other scientific side (if you could call carbon dating a science) to this arguement. There are creation scientists that would stand toe to toe in a debate with a humanistic evolutionist and provide evidence to the direct contrary of what we have all been indoctrinated with. TraceZ, I have heard these arguements; I know how carbon dating works, I have studied stratigraphy and sedimentology in an effort to understand BOTH sides. I am telling you now that there is another side to the coin that most people dont know. Look into it.

Originally posted by TraceZ

Live life to its fullest
Be a good person
respect those around you.

Why? If there is no God? We are not accountable to anyone but ourselves right?

[TraceZ]

Originally posted by N20LT4Bird
Why? If there is no God? We are not accountable to anyone but ourselves right?

I'm not a monster . I am fairminded and civilized. Just because I do not fear god kicking my butt does not mean I am going to go on a killing and raping spree tomorrow. We are accountable to eachother as a society. See?

I have enough self control that I dont need to fear a god to keep my life in order and stay honest. I'm sure most people today do also, but 1000 years ago, that was not the case. Mankind needed fear of god to keep society together so we didnt slaughter eachother. (which they did anyway in the name of religion?)

Faith is a tricky thing. I remember a UFO cult that had faith a ship full of ETs was going to come and save them. Faith didnt get them anywhere but dead. I could have faith in my car running the quarter mile in 9 seconds, but I will just be disapionted.

I am a realist. I believe what is proved to me. I am open minded and always willing to listen. I love a good political or theological conversation.

If you look at the billions of souls that have walked this earth, only a tiny percentage believe in the Christian god. The majority of us will not be admitted into heaven based on the traditional christian screening process. If you are a Jahova witness, only a few hundred thousand souls will be admitted into heaven. Doesnt that suck?

This is a fair and just god? It sounds like his ego is out of control to me. I cant believe in this, it does not make any sense to me. What about all the babies that died before thay had a chance to find god? What about people in cultures that had no exposure to Christ? What about the people that lived and died before Jesus was born? This is definitely not an equal opprotunity god.

See where I am coming from? See why it is so hard for me so believe something like that? I'm looking forward to watching this movie.

[TraceZ]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6
The existance of Jesus of Nazareth is a historical fact. It is the question of him being the Messiah that you can debate.

point made.

[Rob B (shoebox)]

Originally posted by TraceZ
I'm not a monster . I am fairminded and civilized. Just because I do not fear god kicking my butt does not mean I am going to go on a killing and raping spree tomorrow. We are accountable to eachother as a society. See?

I have enough self control that I dont need to fear a god to keep my life in order and stay honest. I'm sure most people today do also, but 1000 years ago, that was not the case. Mankind needed fear of god to keep society together so we didnt slaughter eachother. (which they did anyway in the name of religion?)

Faith is a tricky thing. I remember a UFO cult that had faith a ship full of ETs was going to come and save them. Faith didnt get them anywhere but dead. I could have faith in my car running the quarter mile in 9 seconds, but I will just be disapionted.

I am a realist. I believe what is proved to me. I am open minded and always willing to listen. I love a good political or theological conversation.

If you look at the billions of souls that have walked this earth, only a tiny percentage believe in the Christian god. The majority of us will not be admitted into heaven based on the traditional christian screening process. If you are a Jahova witness, only a few hundred thousand souls will be admitted into heaven. Doesnt that suck?

This is a fair and just god? It sounds like his ego is out of control to me. I cant believe in this, it does not make any sense to me. What about all the babies that died before thay had a chance to find god? What about people in cultures that had no exposure to Christ? What about the people that lived and died before Jesus was born? This is definitely not an equal opprotunity god.

See where I am coming from? See why it is so hard for me so believe something like that? I'm looking forward to watching this movie.

There are answers to all of your questions, but you won't find them on an internet BBS.

BTW, God has no ego.

[jarod]

What about all the babies that died before thay had a chance to find god? What about people in cultures that had no exposure to Christ? What about the people that lived and died before Jesus was born? This is definitely not an equal opprotunity god.



you are not responsiable for your "sin" untill the age of accountability. If you dont know that you are sinning, or know what sinning is, if no one has told you, how can you be held responsiable for that? A sin is when you know something you are doing is wrong (accountability) but you go through with it anyway.

[N20LT4Bird]

Originally posted by TraceZ

This is a fair and just god? It sounds like his ego is out of control to me. I cant believe in this, it does not make any sense to me. What about all the babies that died before thay had a chance to find god? What about people in cultures that had no exposure to Christ? What about the people that lived and died before Jesus was born? This is definitely not an equal opprotunity god.

I am going to try and explain this, so bear with me. Please take the time and read this with an open mind:

For God to PERFECT, he must be all loving, all reighteous, yet all just at the same time. If he were to let everyone into heaven, he would be all loving, but NOT all just. Could you stand next to adolf hitler in heaven? Probably not. That would not be just. God views us in a similiar light as adolf hitler. He cant stand to have us in his prescense due to our sin. Remember he is perfectly holy - meaning without sin. So, because God is perfectly Holy, in order for Him to be perfectly just, God would have to cast everyone with ANY sin into hell.

So, in order to remain perfectly loving, but still just and reightous at the same time., God sent his Son Jesus to take the penalty for our sin. He died in our place. FOr God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son. God inflicted the penalty for our sin on HIS Son. SO, you see, it is a slap in the face to God to say he is not fair, becasue he is PERFECTLY fair and just and loving and reighteous, holy etc... Thats what make Him God. All He asks of us is for us to accept His perfect gift.

Now as far as those who have not heard....they will be held accountable for what they know. The people in the old testament hadnt heard of Jesus. He had not been born. But they knew they had a sin problem and looked to God for mercy, in other words, they looked forward to Jesus.

I have heard stories from missionaries who went into villages that have never heard of Jesus. The missionaries presented the Gospel and the village people said they knew it. They knew of theri own sin problem and were relying on the mercy of an all Powerful God, they jsut didnt know the name of their Saviour until the missionaries told them. Those people were righteous in Gods sight even though they never knew the name of Jesus.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by jarod
........
you are not responsiable for your "sin" untill the age of accountability. If you dont know that you are sinning, or know what sinning is, if no one has told you, how can you be held responsiable for that? A sin is when you know something you are doing is wrong (accountability) but you go through with it anyway.

Not sure if I agree with you here... We believe in being "born into sin". We are sinful beings since birth, and there is nothing we can do to change that. As for the question of what happens to children who die before they are able to accept God, I can only take comfort in knowing that God is a fair and just God, and if his intelligence is infinitely times greater than mine, then so too must his mercy be.