NFB: The Passion

[immgeorge]

Yes, I often see flaws within the church. But like someone said earlier, churches were created by humans. Humans aren't perfect...

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

A church should not condone or support any type of sin. Homosexuality is pretty explicitly condemned in the Bible, both Old and New Testament. So are things such as murder, and heterosexual lust and premarital sex. If the church demonstrates advocacy of any such things, it is leading people away from the will of God.

Now, telling its members to take a political stance on something - to boycott a company - is something that I would see to be stepping outside of what the church should be doing.

But if I don't like that, I don't have to boycott them -- or I can choose another church.

God does love everyone, and it is only up to him to judge. However, a church has the responsibility of leading its people to God -- supporting sinful lifestyles is not a way to do this.

[Black97]

Originally posted by immgeorge
Yes, I often see flaws within the church. But like someone said earlier, churches were created by humans. Humans aren't perfect...

It just urks the hell out of me when some of the less than perfect people pretent in the name of god to be perfect and condem others being far from perfect since they don't fit in the mold that they (the church) formed.

[Black97]

Originally posted by Jay 02 TA ws6
A church should not condone or support any type of sin. Homosexuality is pretty explicitly condemned in the Bible, both Old and New Testament. So are things such as murder, and heterosexual lust and premarital sex. If the church demonstrates advocacy of any such things, it is leading people away from the will of God.

Now, telling its members to take a political stance on something - to boycott a company - is something that I would see to be stepping outside of what the church should be doing.

But if I don't like that, I don't have to boycott them -- or I can choose another church.

God does love everyone, and it is only up to him to judge. However, a church has the responsibility of leading its people to God -- supporting sinful lifestyles is not a way to do this.

Well written Jay

I always say that people can do what they want in their live. If they want to have same sex marriages, I don't care. As long as they don't flaunt it right in front of me or try to convince me to do the same, I don't care.

Same goes for many other church considered "sins".

If it is against the law, then the police will deal with it. If the church says it's a sin, then "enforce" or condemn it within the church and not the rest of the world who may has different believes.

In other words, if you want to join an organization and follow their rules or believes, do so. If you choose not to do so, you can live your life they way you want as long as you are within the law.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

In large part, I agree with you. Since our country is founded on the beliefs of a seperation of church and state -- I don't see any reason to stop gay marriages from occurring (since I can't form any objection to it other than a religious one)... in my own personal views, it is disgusting to me, but I can't impose my views on them for that, I guess...

The one thing that I will strongly object to is gay couples adopting children. When this happens, it isn't just about them anymore -- now we are involving an innocent child in the equation. I believe the child's rights to be brought up in a loving, dysfunction-free household far outweigh any political agenda of a special interest group. We screen couples for histories of drug use, alcoholism, domestic abuse, etc... even fiscal ability to provide for the child -- often times, these couples yearn to have children just as much, but yet we don't allow them to. Adopting children can't just rely on how much the would-be parents want children -- it has to be about how fit they are to give the child a solid up-bringing. I am sorry, but being raised by two mommies or two daddies, just doesn't fall into that category for me.

[Black97]

I agree leave the kids out of this.

Adults can do what they want whith whom they want. As long as it is within the law and kids are not part of it besides a regular mom and dad family.

I would like to ask you though, what is considered a dysfunctional household?

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Originally posted by Black97
I would like to ask you though, what is considered a dysfunctional household?

My (admittedly) conservative viewpoint on this is that dysfunctional households are anything that stray from a loving relationship between both parents and their children. This relationship should be one of constant learning, and growing together as a family. The children should be tought morals (as a Christian I would certainly encourage a family to raise children that way, but morals can certainly exist without religion), and they should also be encouraged to set and strive for goals.

Anything that deviates from this is a form of dysfunction - although some forms are admittedly worse than others. I would even consider a death - such as I faced in losing my dad at age 19 - to be a form of dysfunction. Certainly, single parents have an enormously difficult job to do, and those that succeed deserve all the more acclaim for their truly heroic efforts -- but that doesn't mean that the child would not be better off with a loving mother and father.

So I guess dysfunction ranges from anything like death, divorce, constant fighting - all the way up to the more serious ones like drugs, abuse, and apathy.

That is dysfunction to me. As a society, we are responsible for setting the bounds of what we consider to be socially and morally acceptable... in the end, in a democratic society, what is considered "dysfunctional" will be what the majority says that it is.

[Cade93TA]

Black97

t just urks the hell out of me when some of the less than perfect people pretent in the name of god to be perfect and condem others being far from perfect since they don't fit in the mold that they (the church) formed.

Just to let you know a Christian should never, ever, ever, ever say they are perfect(without sin). There was only one perfect man in the world and that was Jesus. And He didn't even come into the world to Judge the sins of world (that will come later) but to save it.
Let me support what Say with what Jesus teaches:

When the Pharisees wanted to stone a woman for being caught committing adultery, Jesus told them "He who is without sin may cast the first stone."(John ch.8)

"We are all sinners and fallen short of the glory of God"(Romans 3:23)

Psalms 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth.

That was just to name a few. I just wanted to clear that up. I dont want you to get the wrong idea about Christians we are not perfect we are sinners like everyone in the world (me probably being the worst).

To clear up another thing.
Homosexuality is a sin just like me looking at porn on the internet.
The church should not condom the sinner, just the sin.

Here is a website with lots of information. Great discussions and debates.




http://www.johnankerburg.com/

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Re: Black97

Originally posted by Cade93TA

To clear up another thing.
Homosexuality is a sin just like me looking at porn on the internet.
The church should not condom the sinner, just the sin.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... What a Freudian Slip!

[Cade93TA]

That's emberasing

Im embarrassed ....

Especially considering the context of the sentence.

Now is a good time to change the subject.

...er...ah.....So... I was thinking of new Gears for my TA.......

[Sean 94z28]

I for one do not give any one piece of religous literature anymore credibility than another.

I believe that our lives on earth, are and will be, our only exsistance as individuals. If I am going to hell for not believing in an afterlife, so be it.

From what I have gathered about fundemental religions, the things I admit to are probably rather shocking for strong believers.

If I am wrong (and obviously I am hoping I am not) about this belief, I am relying on a compassionate diety to understand that I tried to treat others with respect, and put my family responsiblities before all others. I personally have determined that the risk of being wrong (eternal damnation), does not justify the sacrafice ( suspended logical thinking, giving money to wealthy churches, denouncing are others beliefs as wrong, denying the validity of our scietific discoveries becuase it questions the "truth" - not that they are all correct, etc.)

I had extensive exposure to religion from ages 6-14. Although I know that the church does not teach this, I found that too many followers use religion as scale by which they can judge other peoples lives (when they should only be concerned about their own).

Black summarized the hypocrocies well. Mass media does far more harm to religions than good (tel-evangilists - sp?).

And I still can't get past the innocent question from an 8 year, back fresh from Sunday school a couple years back:

If God created everything, then who created God?

Do any religions seriously address this logical flaw? What is the origin of the creator? I am not claiming to know any of the answers, but you would think religions would be smart enough to claim that THEIR God gave them a brain powerful enough to not only wonder about the nature of things, but also use this "gift" they were given to discover our origins and ponder the deepest questions about life.

Instead the line of logic goes like this; Book=Truth=Truth Can't Change. The only real truth anyone of us knows is that we exsist and we think.

Anyway, just a movie, just entertainment for money, obviously something powerful for those whos religion it portrays.

Guess we didn't all know each other as well as we thought

Sean

PS. Please don't take this as insulting or derogratory, it was in no way intented to be. Just trying to give my F-body friends a perspective of the way others see the world.

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

You express valid concerns, much like Black97, and you make some good points.

Originally posted by Sean 94z28


If God created everything, then who created God?

Do any religions seriously address this logical flaw? What is the origin of the creator?

This, however, is not one of them. I don't see why the concept of the creator being here from the beginning of time is so hard to grasp. Clearly, the string of origin had to begin somewhere -- if you want to wonder who created God, then you also have to wonder who created the creator of God. The bottom line is that it began somewhere. Even scientists, who preach the Big Bang theory believe that the origin of everything is traced to that one specific moment at the beginning of time. They also, by the way, say that tey can't rule out the existence of a God during such an event because they lack the ability to understand it.

"In the beginning there was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was with God." John 1:1

The concept isn't difficult. The all-powerful being has been around since the beginning of time. We may lack the physics or chemistry to explain/prove his existence since our human minds can't comprehend how something could exist without having something else create it, but that doesn't mean that a spiritual belief can't have faith in it.

[TODD 2000 V6 CAMARO]

This kind of statement really scares me. To hear someone say that if they are going to go to hell then so be it, kind of makes me nervous for that person. You seem to be the kind of person who is hoping to get by on good behavior, that is...just in case there is a god. You aren't saved by your good deeds. Faith in God and his son Jesus are the only way to heaven. Is faith really so hard? Just to believe in him? You sound like you haven't completely ruled out the idea. What are your plans for when you get to hell? To yell up to God that you were a good person? There was a man who did this in the bible....the suffering was so bad that he was begging God for just one drop of water to touch his toungue. We have the choice to either follow (the difficult way) or no (the easy way). But what we decide decides what happens to us when we die. You, my friend, are judging God by a small few of his followers who are humans and like us all, are sinners and make mistakes. All I ask you is this...get to know God for who he is...read a bible, find a good church to visit. Seek him out and he will meet you where you are. Don't sell yourself short. You can even write me an e-mail if you have any questions. Give it some thought.

[N20LT4Bird]

Originally posted by Sean 94z28

If I am wrong (and obviously I am hoping I am not) about this belief, I am relying on a compassionate diety to understand that I tried to treat others with respect, and put my family responsiblities before all others. I personally have determined that the risk of being wrong (eternal damnation), does not justify the sacrafice ( suspended logical thinking, giving money to wealthy churches, denouncing are others beliefs as wrong, denying the validity of our scietific discoveries becuase it questions the "truth" - not that they are all correct, etc.)

Instead the line of logic goes like this; Book=Truth=Truth Can't Change. The only real truth anyone of us knows is that we exsist and we think.

First off, your good works will never outway your bad. Your good works are as filthy rags to a Holy God. So, you dont have to rely on a "compassionate diety to understand" that you are a good person - because according to "the Book" your not, Im not, no one is (a good person). Romans: "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" Thats the whole point of the movie. Jesus died and took on YOUR penalty. Romans also sais: "For the wages of sin is death". He paid the WAGES!


As far as your question goes about who created God, is it anymore illogical to assume that God has no creator than it is to assume that the big bang has no creator. Which is it - the big bang (which we can supposedly scientifically understand) or God (who we will never understand)? Each is a leap of faith my friend. Science and the Bible do not controdict each other. Some Scientists and the Bible do because they deny God for the purposes of bing there own God. "In their wisdom they became fools."

[Sean 94z28]

Jay, one of the more reasonable explanations I have heard without harsh judgement upon me. I do give you this, due to our lack of complete understanding of such matters, it is probably equally illogical to assume there was an official starting point - like where something came from nothing. Like most religion origins (opinion only), it is very reasonable (but not totally logical), to assign an abitrary start point - like a powerful being or the creation of our exsistance.

Todd, thank you for your concern for my well being, I am comforted by it's intentions from your perspective. Unfortunately, I think you may have missed the real point. The alarming non-chalant attitude towards my fate, orignates from the lack of evidence for the exsistance of such a place, or even what part of us is supposed to inhabit it (our soul I assume). And please imagine that your God gave me my brain (and soul if you must), just as he gave you yours. So now your religon begins to prohibit any thoughts that don't agree with it's "truths" according to literature. The ability to choose what is wrong and right in action, yes, reserve that for judgement. But the thoughts alone, to ask questions, to be curious?
And believe it or not, I have many religious friends and relatives (parents), and my family and I enjoy their company frequently, and we will be attending a family oriented church sponsered Memorial Day gathering for the or fourth time (I sound like a racist denier now . Not because of their beliefs, because the're all great people.
Definately not hoping to get by on good behavior (though it would be ironic if a "saved" murderer got in, and a respectable Muslim or Budhist gets denied.). I am COUNTING on the non-exsistance of such place. Sorry, I know that is as difficult for you to understand as your perspective is to me.

Bird- That is where I am willing to FULLY admit the problem with my stance . I do NOT shout Big Bang or evolution and run from the debate. I ABSOLUTELY want to understand what was before the big bang too, I want to know why science thinks humans are one age and religion claims another. Like I said, something from nothing? No beginning? I don't know, and the brain I was given constantly analyzes all positions and evidence and opinions. The contradictions come in the interpretations, literal or metaphorical for example? If you want to stand behind the metaphorical ideas, it is a very good guide for living a healthy, respectful lifestyle. Literally it is full of inconsistancies, of which even biblical scholars can't fully agree on.

Yes, the faith you speak of comes very hard. Should I have not commited myself to the wife I did because she was raised under different beliefs. Even though the result is a strong, and loving family. Different religions can only love one another from a distance?

What is very illogical to me is this; We don't have a partial or full understanding of something, so it must be God. There is not 100% evidence (technically no such thing exsists) for evolution in its current form, so the only other alternative is a God, OUR one and only God (as opposed to all the other guys wrong false Gods). Why don't you just claim that your God created everything with a Big Bang? Admit we don't have all the answers, and your God gave us the tools to slowly discover how amazing his creations really are. Seems more intelligent than denying our best efforts to explain such matters. Another thing; we are willing as a society to legally take a life based on an extremely complex and technical science (DNA for example - no OJ jokes!). But other sciences with similar origins are "unproven", "agenda driven", or just "lies", when they question religous beliefs. They are derived from the same scientific methods, the only ones we know that brought us where we are today with medicine and technologies.

I enjoy others perspectives and the points brought out here. I do understand the "sensative" nature of the topic, so feel free to junp in and say "enough already, this is a f-body baord". If you want to continue to better understand each other, I am willing.

Sincerely
Sean