NFB: Does God have a sense of irony?

[TraceZ]

I think part of the problem is that most humans can't begin to grasp the vastness of the universe.

Take Corona Borealis, for instance. A large galaxy cluster in that particular constellation is some 400 million parsecs away (1 parsec=20 trillion miles). The light coming from this cluster is over a billion years old. A lot of those stars aren't there anymore. Now our own galaxy, the Milkey Way, measures 35,000 parsecs across and contains about 300 billion stars, give or take 100 billion. Light takes about 100,000 years to cross our galaxy or about 25,000 years to reach the Earth from the Galaxy's center, and about 12 hours to cross our puny little solar system at a measily 186,000 mph. Now, a neighboring galaxy called Andromeda, which is a mere 670,000 parsecs (13,400,000,000,000,000,000 mi) away(but still part of the local group) has light which takes over 2 million years to get here. Lastly, there are billions of galaxies out there to consider, so who the hell can figure it out?

Comments???

I like this post. Indisputable facts.

See, the universe and the wonderful things in it have developed over such incredible vastness and age that our minds are incapable of grasping it. It is ok to say you dont have the answers. Our Galaxy, solar syatem and planet have existed for a mere tick in the total time of the universe. Man has existed for a mere tick of that time. Our planet is more common in the universe than the grains of sand on all our beaches. Using statistics and probability you can bank on countless other intelligent species scattered across the universe.

We humans are quite arrogant and have a hard time puting this into perspective. Do you have anything made of silver or gold? Both these elements, and many others are made in supernovas. Look at your jewelry and imagine how many billions of years ago its elements were composed. It was before the earth even existed. It blows my mind and makes me feel like i'm irrelevant. It makes me feel like we dont have the answers and I think it is ok to not have the answers. I am perfectly OK with admitting that I will die without the answers. I am also perfectly OK if when I die my consciousness will also die. Why am I so special that i would live eternally in this expansive, ancient universe.

Our universe is actually young. We know by use of the doppler effect and shifting of the light spectrum that the galaxies in our universe are spreading away from eachother. That would suggest that mass from the big bang is still spreading outward. Eventually massive black holes will cause the mass to fall back in on itself and then there will be another big bang at some point when a black hole reaches critical mass. Over time, our universe will eternally cycle like this. Just like the empty space it lives in it has no beginning and it will never end. I'm guessing that there are countless other universes doing the same thing. I wonder if mass from various universes ever co-mingles? Are they close enough? Who knows. Our tiny inadequate human brains can only guess. We by no means can see the big picture.

I dont think there is an ancient book with all the correct answers. I'm not ready to say I know for sure, though. I am just a human after all. I remain open minded.

[TraceZ]

Has anyone here ever seen a cat with "lucky toes"?

6 toed cats are fairly common, and are better at finding food than 5 toed cats. At some point in time, a genetic abnormality in just 1 cat occurred and gave it 6 toes on its front paws. It did well, caught lots of food and had lots of offspring. Its offspring also had 6 toes and so on. Eventaully all cats will have 6 toes.

When a cat is born missing an arm due to genetic abnormality it cannot catch food and does not do well. It most likely does not have any offspring and the abnormality ends with the death of that single cat.

This is evolution. It is genetic occurrences like this that have occurred over BILLIONS of years to produce the world as you see it today. I have a really hard time believing it all happenned overnight when God snapped his fingers. The fossil records contradict that as well as everything else in nature. I believe the possibility exists for some type of exteranl intervention, be it devine or more simply extraterrestrial. Once again i get to that point where I simply do not have the universal perspective to know the answers. Anything is possible.

[Kevin - Blown 95 TA]

Interesting points. We're taking two things for granted though: 1. The speed of light has remained unchanged since the beginning of time and 2.) the speed of light does not change as it travels the vast expanses of space. Food for thought

Not really. Even if the physycists and astronomers are way, way off in their calculations of distance & time, the numbers showing the size & age of the universe would still be vast. We already know that time can be dilated and light can be bent, so there are errors which are already there, but they could be off by a factor of 10^6 and still prove the point. Besides, wouldn't the incomprehensible vastness of the universe make God just that much greater?

[fastTa]

A good friend of mine, who also happened to be a pastor at a local church, once told me......"We are spirits having a human experience, not humans having a spriritual experience."

Think about it.

[Nightrage]

My grandma says stuff like that sometimes. "You choose your parents" she'll say and many feel the same way. I want to know what idiot chooses to be a starving Etheopian kid.

[fastTa]

More food for thought.

Of the known hundreds of liquids here on earth, water is the only one to posses a very unique property. A life sustaining property. All other liquids known to man have the inherant physical property of becoming more dense as there ambient temperature is decreased even below there freezing point. Water disobeys this trend.

We all know that water freezes at approximately 0°C or 32°F. Well at approximately 4°C and below, the density of water actually becomes less. This is what makes ice float and not sink. Imagine a lake whose water is nearing freezing temps. Just before the water in the lake reaches it's freezing point, the water becomes less dense than the slightly surrounding warmer water and it rises to the top of the lake to form ice.

What is my point? Imagine if water's physical properties followed the trend of other liquids and linearly decreased in density as it's temperature decreased. Thousands of organisms of all shapes and forms would be adversely affected. First of all the obvious, there would be no life as we know it that exists on polar caps or any otherwise annually frozen biome. No penguins, no polar bears, etc.. Then what about the biomes who only are exposed freezing conditions for part of the year. That very ice that floated to the top of the lake would normally provide an insulating barrier in which protects the lower portion of the lake and allows the fish, algae, and other organisms to prosper even with the given conditions. If water's phsical characteristics were that of any other liquid here on earth, those organisms would have never survived because that same lake would have frozen solid.

Water did not obtain these physical characteristics by chance or by some desperate atheistic theory trying to find some plausable human logic in this phenomenon. Instead water was given these characteristics by a higher power. A higher power that knew that the life here on earth in which it created depended on it.

[Dave M]

More food for thought.

Of the known hundreds of liquids here on earth, water is the only one to posses a very unique property. A life sustaining property. All other liquids known to man have the inherant physical property of becoming more dense as there ambient temperature is decreased even below there freezing point. Water disobeys this trend.

We all know that water freezes at approximately 0°C or 32°F. Well at approximately 4°C and below, the density of water actually becomes less. This is what makes ice float and not sink. Imagine a lake whose water is nearing freezing temps. Just before the water in the lake reaches it's freezing point, the water becomes less dense than the slightly surrounding warmer water and it rises to the top of the lake to form ice.

What is my point? Imagine if water's physical properties followed the trend of other liquids and linearly decreased in density as it's temperature decreased. Thousands of organisms of all shapes and forms would be adversely affected. First of all the obvious, there would be no life as we know it that exists on polar caps or any otherwise annually frozen biome. No penguins, no polar bears, etc.. Then what about the biomes who only are exposed freezing conditions for part of the year. That very ice that floated to the top of the lake would normally provide an insulating barrier in which protects the lower portion of the lake and allows the fish, algae, and other organisms to prosper even with the given conditions. If water's phsical characteristics were that of any other liquid here on earth, those organisms would have never survived because that same lake would have frozen solid.

Water did not obtain these physical characteristics by chance or by some desperate atheistic theory trying to find some plausable human logic in this phenomenon. Instead water was given these characteristics by a higher power. A higher power that knew that the life here on earth in which it created depended on it.

Kevin, all this is well and great, and you had a good post going until you just threw in at the end that water could not have possibly gotten these qualities by chance? Why not? What evidence do you have that it was a higher power that gave water unique qualities? Why water and not some other liquid?

[N20LT4Bird]

Has anyone here ever seen a cat with "lucky toes"?

6 toed cats are fairly common, and are better at finding food than 5 toed cats. At some point in time, a genetic abnormality in just 1 cat occurred and gave it 6 toes on its front paws. It did well, caught lots of food and had lots of offspring. Its offspring also had 6 toes and so on. Eventaully all cats will have 6 toes.

When a cat is born missing an arm due to genetic abnormality it cannot catch food and does not do well. It most likely does not have any offspring and the abnormality ends with the death of that single cat.

This is evolution. It is genetic occurrences like this that have occurred over BILLIONS of years to produce the world as you see it today. I have a really hard time believing it all happenned overnight when God snapped his fingers. The fossil records contradict that as well as everything else in nature. I believe the possibility exists for some type of exteranl intervention, be it devine or more simply extraterrestrial. Once again i get to that point where I simply do not have the universal perspective to know the answers. Anything is possible.

TraceZ, you know the story very well.......

If a cat has six toes, is it not a cat anymore? This is the micro-evolution that Darwin speaks of. The problem lies in the fact that humanistic scientists make the jump from the obvious micro evolution we see around us to this ridiculous story of macro evolution. The cat will never be anything more than a cat if it had 25 toes. You see to make a jump from lets say fish to birds there needs to be NEW genetic information. Where does that come from? There's never any NEW genetic information added into the pool. A sixth toe is simply a mutation of the same old genetic information which will never allow that cat to be anything more than a cat. Do you know that the fossil evidence that they have that supposedly supports evolution would fit in a box the sixe of a coffin? Its ridiculous - millions of years of evolution and they have box of evidence that is shady at best.

I have a hard time believing ANY amount of time would produce the environment we see today. Its much easier to believe that GOD did it in 6 days Its funny how "time" is the magic potion that makes it all work. If something is impossible, it doesnt matter how much time you give it - its still impossible.

[fastTa]

Kevin, all this is well and great, and you had a good post going until you just threw in at the end that water could not have possibly gotten these qualities by chance? Why not? What evidence do you have that it was a higher power that gave water unique qualities? Why water and not some other liquid?

Do you really believe that it is merely by chance that out of hundreds of liquids, water is the only one that displays this phenomenon.

[N20LT4Bird]

Do you really believe that it is merely by chance that out of hundreds of liquids, water is the only one that displays this phenomenon.

Kevin, you could really pick anything.....try explaining the intracacies of the eye with evolution. If you come up with a story, its gonna be a doosy Its ridiculous to even think about it. How did the eye evolve?

[02Z28]

....The Bible is the word of God, the truth, flawless. Religions and churches were created by man. Helpful to communites and helpful in growing with in your walk with christ but not without flaw....

there's a flaw in the statements above. obviously, you acknowledge that man is flawed. but since you acknowledge that, how can you possibly believe that the bible is flawless, when it was written by man?

the bible is not divine mandate, it is simply a guideline for the masses to live by, so that they have something to live for, and it is in no way "flawless", as what works for one person does not work for another. i don't need the words of the bible or a religion to find something to live for, i can do that all on my own.

.... I think when people compalin about churches having money they are spending time targeting the wrong establishments....

no, they are right on target....

i could give a crap less about nightclubs or other establishments making money off of their patrons....after all, that's what a business is there for, to turn a profit.

people get pissed about the churches, because here comes the church, a "non-profit organization" that doesn't have to pay taxes (and i use that term loosely, knowing the real truth of the matter), bringing in tons of money from their patrons, and rather than spending that money on the church, what do they do? they buy a BMW....and not just one for the entire family, no no no....one for each family MEMBER.

now, i'm not saying that ALL churches are like that, but it seems like more and more of them are being corrupted by the lure of tax-free income, and squander that income in a way that 1) doesn't agree with their religion, and 2) doesn't agree with the law.

don't suppose anyone here remembers Billy Graham?......

[fastTa]

Kevin, you could really pick anything.....try explaining the intracacies of the eye with evolution. If you come up with a story, its gonna be a doosy Its ridiculous to even think about it. How did the eye evolve?

Tell me about it. I always liked the water story because of my Biology2 professor in college always was able to turn some of the non-beleivers around with it. But, maybe I'll have to put something together on the evolution of the eye.

[Sean 94z28]

I like this post. Indisputable facts.

Don't you see Tracez, these are exactly the facts that N20 is disputing. He is actually claiming that our calculation of the speed of light is way off. Not just slightly, but enough to turn a billion year old universe into a 10,000 yr old one.

I still wanna know when our errors become obvious because the moon was exactly where we calculated. And we have spacecraft near the edge of our solar system, that guess what, is right where we calculated in distance.

Like I said, this debate is rather futile, cause an all powerful God could just create a universe that has an illusion of being old. We (science)are on the side that admits it errors and faults. They are on the side that never has, and never will be wrong in the slightest. I wonder how it feels to absolutely know you are always correct? On that note, how would one know for sure that they are absolutely corrrect and without error. Oh yeah, they have book! Now I am convinced.

N20, if you and I are the only ones discussing the fine details, do you really think the tornado foolishness is a new one to me. Please, give me more credit than that. The only idea more crazy than a tornado making an F-body, is guy that looks like a human snapping his fingers and creating a universe in an instant.

Isn't the way things really happened amazing enough for your creator? The problem is your whole world is built on that book of 100% true stories, if one thing is incorrect in it, it jeapordizes the accuracy of the whole.

Cheers,Sean

[N20LT4Bird]

Don't you see Tracez, these are exactly the facts that N20 is disputing. He is actually claiming that our calculation of the speed of light is way off. Not just slightly, but enough to turn a billion year old universe into a 10,000 yr old one.

The calculation on the speed of light within our "test lab" is obviously correct. And....it MAY be correct throughout the universe. I am just questioning whether the speed of light reamians constant throughout the expanses of space....or......has it changed since the beginning. Maybe your right....its relaly irrelevant to my position. Einstein quesitoned these things too.....was he a fool? Einsten believed in a creator, HE realized the impossibility of random chance. But, he was probably just a dumbass

Isn't the way things really happened amazing enough for your creator? The problem is your whole world is built on that book of 100% true stories, if one thing is incorrect in it, it jeapordizes the accuracy of the whole.

Cheers,Sean

I challenge you to look at it and prove it wrong. Find a genuine fault or falsehood, or contradiction. You wouldnt be the first to try, and many have turned to God through their efforts. Most of them probably more set in their ways and diligent in their atheism than you. So, there it is.....a challenge

Oh....and im not looking for a couple of links to sites talking about how Mathew and Mark report differnt numbers of people at certain places or different orders or irrelevant details in events, we've all heard those before.

[Sean 94z28]

I challenge you to look at it and prove it wrong. Find a genuine fault or falsehood, or contradiction.

Already did. Oops, I forgot, you are not allowed to test your god by drinking poison. Guess we'll never know why Jesus even bothered to mention that, if not to point out a "benefit" of being a believer (like take a note, but don't ever try it, it's not a party trick darn it). OK, I'll settle for a lay on hands. Tell me what type of wounds I can expect to get healed (a list maybe). I pick the victim, you choose the healer. Or did we not agree on definitions for that passage?

Or how about some science behind the flood. Where did all the water come from? Where did it go? How much water was it? Scientific model please, not vague quotes from Genesis.

Speaking of vague. Or the dinos. Were there dinos on the ark? Why or why not? Don't you think such a large population of immense, dangerous, and near the top of the food chain creatures would get more than a very obscure mentioning. Last discussion we had you bring up behemoth and it sounded quite interesting. So I do some research and find that alternate translations (rather than the King James PC version) make his privates as big as a cedar. Not his tail (or should it be tale)! Do contradictions between translations count?

Oh....and im not looking for a couple of links to sites talking about how Mathew and Mark report differnt numbers of people at certain places or different orders or irrelevant details in events, we've all heard those before

I consider those to be minor. Just because their relevance isn't big, or because we've all heard them, doesn't excuse any inaccuracies they may have. It is either a factual historical document or not. It does not get the benefit of excusing minor, statistically accepted inaccuracies (like a modern textbook) because it is divinely inspired and free of any human error. Right?

I spent the large number of my young years wrapped up in the bible (approx. 5-11 yrs old, every Sunday, every summer bible camp, every night at the table). I have invested enough time with that particular story book already. At this point it would be far more enlightening for me to study religions (and the psychology behind them) in general. At least then I would get more than just one side of the story (and a minority side at that).

Oversimplification coming -

The creationist origin position in two sentences:

I will dedicate my life to defending our creator's perfect 7-day story from the satan inspired scientific opposition who wish to use intentionally falsified information to maximize their opportunities to sin. Please believe my book because tornados don't make jetliners, the 2nd Law of TD says only god can make natural order, and they are missing fossils (because they only have a table full, and they're faked) too.

The scientist origin position -

Wish I knew where the heck I came from, because their sure is a lot of different opinions out there. I guess I'll dedicate my entire career/life to trying to find out more than we know today through hard work, countless failures and successes, and the relentless criticism of those who already have the all the answers.

Sean