NFB: Does God have a sense of irony?

[fastTa]

Sean, why do you keep asking "where is the healing?"? I'm just curious because I wasn't sure exactly what you were referring to.

[Sean 94z28]

Sean, why do you keep asking "where is the healing?"? I'm just curious because I wasn't sure exactly what you were referring to.

Is or is not the following a legitimate test of true believer for your literal, factual, nothing but true stories bible (remember you chose bible = fact):

Mark 16: 15-18:
And He [Jesus] said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents and if they drink ANY deadly poison, it shall not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they [the sick] will recover."

So a true believer like yourself can drink ANY deadly poison or lay on hands? Or may we also have different definitions of literal (as we do evidence). Or was it the dead sea scrolls I should have quoted.

and the reply

This passage speaks of various gifts that a believer may be given. It doesnt say that all believers will possess all these gifts all the time. It says these are signs of a believer. The Bible speaks of all kinds of people doing extraordinary things because they had faith. Could I drink deadly poison? Sure. If my God allowed it. Would I go out and handle snakes and drink poison for fun? NO! Satan tempted Jesus in his final hours to do things that only He could do. In Mathew 4:

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'[2] "
7Jesus answered him, "It is also written: "DO NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST".

I still don't read it as a "maybe power", but a benefit of baptism and true belief. Why else would Jesus even bother to mention it? I am willing to accept that you must not test your god. So I want the power of non-scientific healing demo'd.

There are others we can persue. I was challenged to come up with an iffy bible reference.

This isn't my entire quiver (and I know N20's is still way full) so we could move to others.

Respectfully,
Sean

[Sean 94z28]

I have know of people healed beyond all scientific reason. Were hands laid on? I know a few instances. Was it an immediate healing like Jesus performed? No, but healing the less.

So it was a fleeting gift and can't be repeated for another (like Benny does)?

I agree there are many mysterious recoveries that are beyond the explanation of modern medicine. My next question would be: Do "true believers" get all, or the vast majority of these unexplained healings? Or are they evenly distributed amongst all faiths and cultures?

What is the literal significance of Jesus saying that these would be signs of those who have believed?

Should we try a contradiction? 4 easy words - how many hidden literal meanings can there be?

You shall not kill? (murder for Catholic, right?).
This is a commandment without any written exceptions in it's current context. There are no footnotes, exceptions, or asterisks. I have also been led to understand that the Bible is able to justify war (and if I am wrong here I don't know how a person of faith could support our war), especially as it relates to battling satan. If anything represents evil, our current enemy certainly qualifies. So it is REALLY: You shall not kill unless justified, attacked, or some other qualifier. Telling a man not to kill, and also giving permission to kill another man(who represents satan) is a contradiction in my definition.

My "personal" feelings about the Ten is that they are actually the top ten of the Golden Rule. Of all the do unto others, these are the nastiest that you wouldn't want done to you. My intepretaiton (not literal), is that these are the most negatively powerful offenses that can be performed on another human. Outstanding guidelines to live by! And I will. As long as you don't directly threaten the lives of me or my family (which attacking my country certainly does). From there it becomes: I will do onto you, what you intend to do to me, first. (This is not the position that Jesus took and therefore fails the WWJD test too)

Thanks
Sean

[Sean 94z28]

I think it has already gotten to argument form. I have read enough posts of guys laughing at our beliefs, and basically insinuating that believers are idiots. "Don't cast your pearls among the swine" Not to call anyone here swine, it's a metaphor. One of those metaphors that the bible is attacked about because it could mean anything, right? I know what is meant by it, so...I'm done with this thread.

Keep your pearls.

Dude, you wouldn't last 5 minutes with my golfing friends. Every weekend we verbally spar it out on the links (and tackle/wrestle sometimes too, hehe)while trying to keep our game in line
Try this on for size: me (self proclaimed pursuer of logic), a conservative Christian (very close family friend - very clear on his religious position like N20), a cat from Isreal (very Jewish of course, 9 yrs in the States), and steroetypical liberal Cali Hippie (sticking up for the little guy, mostly Palestinians against Jewish cat). Every week I get to laugh so hard I at the insults and general foolishness. Water off my back. They have taught me as much as that thar book lernin.

Suck it up Todd, continue to stick up for your beliefs man. You may not get fans, but you'll get the respect. I respect N20 like crazy. Not only will he stick up for his beleifs against a large majority (supporters of evolution), but he follows it up with diligent research of BOTH side's position. The effort he's expended shines through in the quality and determination of his arguement. Cheers N20

If you were really insulted or laughed at. Call the person out on it. You will get the support of those who don't accept it as a legitamite discussion technique.

You will, however, need a think skin if you plan to venture into a less moderated forum dedicated to the topic (ie. while doing more research because you find the topic interesting). There is lots to learn in the other sides territory, but it's unlikely to be open arms.

Sean

[N20LT4Bird]

Sean, why do you keep asking "where is the healing?"? I'm just curious because I wasn't sure exactly what you were referring to.

Mark 16: 15-18:
And He [Jesus] said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents and if they drink ANY deadly poison, it shall not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they [the sick] will recover."

Hes referring to this passage. He posed the question as to why dont all believers have these gifts promised by Jesus.

I explained to him that these gifts arent promised to EVERYONE who believes, but they are signs a beleiver may show. Its not an all-inclusive package.

Sean, Look at the book of Daniel (chap 3), 3 old testament believers: Shadrach, Meeshach and Abednigo (probably buchered spelling). THey walked around in the fire after the king threw them in for not acknowledging another god. Does that mean that every believer can just go dance in the fire at any given moment? No. Well, they can, but it will hurt. God will empower people supernaturally when He feels like it.

[N20LT4Bird]

So it was a fleeting gift and can't be repeated for another (like Benny does)?

I agree there are many mysterious recoveries that are beyond the explanation of modern medicine. My next question would be: Do "true believers" get all, or the vast majority of these unexplained healings? Or are they evenly distributed amongst all faiths and cultures?

Exodus 33
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


He's God, and he will heal who He wants, when He wants and how He wants

What is the literal significance of Jesus saying that these would be signs of those who have believed?

I think we have to look at who He is talking to in the passage - the 11 disciples, after the crucifixion. This is a time where there was no Bible, no new testament scriptures. There were no set rules, just The Message. He was telling His disciples to go out and make more disciples and giving them signs to look for in a believer, so that they could tell. Its hard to say exactly what He meant by it, but I dont think that it was in any way a promise to ALL believers that they will be supernatural. It wasnt a command to go out and make magicians and sorcerers.

Should we try a contradiction? 4 easy words - how many hidden literal meanings can there be?

You shall not kill? (murder for Catholic, right?).
This is a commandment without any written exceptions in it's current context. There are no footnotes, exceptions, or asterisks. I have also been led to understand that the Bible is able to justify war (and if I am wrong here I don't know how a person of faith could support our war), especially as it relates to battling satan. If anything represents evil, our current enemy certainly qualifies. So it is REALLY: You shall not kill unless justified, attacked, or some other qualifier. Telling a man not to kill, and also giving permission to kill another man(who represents satan) is a contradiction in my definition.

My "personal" feelings about the Ten is that they are actually the top ten of the Golden Rule. Of all the do unto others, these are the nastiest that you wouldn't want done to you. My intepretaiton (not literal), is that these are the most negatively powerful offenses that can be performed on another human. Outstanding guidelines to live by! And I will. As long as you don't directly threaten the lives of me or my family (which attacking my country certainly does). From there it becomes: I will do onto you, what you intend to do to me, first. (This is not the position that Jesus took and therefore fails the WWJD test too)

Thanks
Sean

As far as the thou shalt not kill, I have always know it as thou shalt not murder. I am not Catholic. If it was kill, then there would be so much scripture that contradicts it: David killing goliath, Abraham sacrificing his son (almost) are just to name a few. Murder is wrong and there are times to kill. It says it in ecclesiastes. You know, "turn, turn, turn"

Your talking about old testament LAW. As a Christian, I am not bound by the law, but I live under grace. The Old testament was a book of laws, hundreds of them. These laws were put into place to show that we could never live up to them. Only Christ can, and did. Christ came to fulfill the law to perfection. He nailed the written code to the cross when he died for you and me. Those who have accepted the gift are not bound by the law, which was put forth to condemn us, but are free from it.

[DeWynter]

Sean as you ask for proof of God, I then would like to see proof of evolution, or the Big bang "theory", and I mean Proof not theories or carbon dating or reasons it must be true because of _____________(fill in the blank). Jesus came to earth 2000 years ago (ball park) and was proof of God, although he was accepted by some and refuted by others. Just for the sake of argument, IF a man demonstrated healing powers to you by healing another person would you accept it or would you pick it apart with science. I believe if you did see it you would attribute it to other things that you could contribute to science, as would I. I can’t say that if I saw a sick man healed that I would believe it was because of a healer or if he just got better. Now if I saw a man have his arm chopped off and a man stuck it back on I would have no other reason to disbelieve. But the Bible is a record of God and Jesus' life and he did heal the sick and even reattached an ear on a man after it had been chopped off. Even back during Jesus life time there were those that saw these things and said BS I don’t believe it, hence he was crucified. I realize you do not believe that the Bible is completely accurate. I believe there are probably errors in translation. But for the most part it is accepted as a true account of things that happened in the world at that time. I know that there are Bibles that are more complete than your average NIV or King James, there are a few more books in some, and I’m not talking about Mormons or Jehovah whiteness. There are also lots of other books that reference to Jesus time and other times in history that are also talked about in the Bible. There are many other texts that have accounts of a man names Jesus that did great wonders during that time period. I have even seen documentaries of people trying to find the tomb of Jesus and his family on TLC that used means other than the Bible. The bible is a good reliable source of proof of God, religion is not. I am Christian but I am not affiliated with a type of Christianity e.g. Presbyterian, catholic etc. I am not going to try to prove God as I believe it would take God him self to come and sit at your table to get you to believe in him. But on the other side of the coin I don’t believe in evolution and wont until I see complete and total proof of it and or the Big bang theory.

[Kevin - Blown 95 TA]

THE MERRY MINUET - by the Kingston Trio in 1960 or so

They're rioting in Africa.
They're starving in Spain.
There's hurricanes in Florida,
And Texas needs rain.
The whole world is festering with unhappy souls.
The French hate the Germans.
The Germans hate the Poles.
Italians hate Yugoslavs.
South Africans hate the Dutch.
And I don't like anybody very much!
But we can be tranquil and thankful and proud
For man's been endowed with a mushroom shaped cloud.
And we know for certain that some lovely day,
Someone will set the spark off and we will all be blown away.
They're rioting in Africa.
There's strife in Iran.
What nature doesn't do to us will be done by our fellow man.

[Kevin - Blown 95 TA]

Joe1320's account of the latest hurricane:The entire house shook and rumbled like an earthquake. The damage is extensive all over the area. My place was hit hard. I lost the roof, the house is flooded, literally water pouring down the walls,the ceiling came down in the garage on top of the GN, the 97WS6 was untouched like god's protective hand was covering it. The rest of the garage is totally trashed, yet the T/A sat there with a zaino shine with only two droplets of water on it.

I think this settles the arguement...

[Sean 94z28]

Sean as you ask for proof of God

Stop there. Got a quote? Did you see where I jumped in on this?

I was asking for proof of God, as an innocent child many years ago. As an adult I fully understand that the religion does not support this mortal wish. Fine.

I chimed in on what I perceive to be an attack on science. That the world was created in a literal 7 days (my first question was: literal bible or not). And while science IS not 100% accurate, nor 100% proof of anything(there is no such thing), it is also NOT incorrect by several million (or billion) orders of magnitude like a Young Earth theorists purport (my opinion). Why does this theory claim this young earth? Because it does not want to risk a SINGLE inaccuracy in the book. If you believe it literal and divenly inspired, one falsehood jeopordizes the whole.

Are you miss quoting me or did I say something I didn't intend to? I am pretty careful about word selection. Or do you fit in the catagory I just described? Who can't be troubled to try to understand, let alone ask about, another person's belief system.

I also said that religion should just claim their God did whatever the best science says happened. Big Bang - that's my God, awesome eh? Evolution - my God again, impressed yet? A universe beyond human comprehension - you guessed it, same dude! You could Say: He sent his message (bible) in a form that the people of that time period could understand. Had he told them about DNA, the universe, yada yada, it would have been far beyond their understanding. Just as some things are still far beyond our understanding. So that is why he gave us free will to become more knowledgable about his wonderful creation.

I humbly claim not NOT know where we came from, nor the exact nature of the catalyst for this. I do beleive that science (not one of many religious texts) is more historically accurate than global floods, no dinosaurs, and the willing of an entire universe into exsistance with fully functioning and sinning humans. If it was your God, fine. What was before him? Can a human comprehend a vast universe that once was nothing? No time, no matter, only a human like god? I cannot.

I also already said that it is impossiible for me to be right, because I am debating supporters of a flawless source (one that can't be wrong).

Furthermore, if their is an "Intelligent Designer", I don't beleive (at "his" level of exsistance) that he would have so many human traights. Like here's your awesome brain, use it like I say or I will burn you in eternal fire. BTW, did I mention the eternal (only 10,000 years so far) party you can earn an invite to. Just pass this simple test on earth.... bingo, your in. Even if you murdered, then found me, it's still all good.

Peace,
Sean

[Sean 94z28]

Joe1320's account of the latest hurricane:The entire house shook and rumbled like an earthquake. The damage is extensive all over the area. My place was hit hard. I lost the roof, the house is flooded, literally water pouring down the walls,the ceiling came down in the garage on top of the GN, the 97WS6 was untouched like god's protective hand was covering it. The rest of the garage is totally trashed, yet the T/A sat there with a zaino shine with only two droplets of water on it.

I think this settles the arguement...

Agreed! Best evidence yet of divine intervention! Maybe a hint that heaven has F-bodies?

[Sean 94z28]

But on the other side of the coin I don’t believe in evolution and wont until I see complete and total proof of it and or the Big bang theory.

Science will never be able to give you this. It can, by definition, only provide theories that do or do not stand the rigorous test of peer review and time.

Since the bible is accurate and supplies you with enough information to satify you desire for knowledge, should we stop funding sciences supposedly invalidated by "creation science". Is that what you are suggesting? Stop looking over there, we already know that answer!

And you are thinking how closed minded I AM? Go figure.

Sean

[Jay 02 TA ws6]

Someone needs to drop a Crucifix on this thread.

[Nightrage]

Joe1320's account of the latest hurricane:The entire house shook and rumbled like an earthquake. The damage is extensive all over the area. My place was hit hard. I lost the roof, the house is flooded, literally water pouring down the walls,the ceiling came down in the garage on top of the GN, the 97WS6 was untouched like god's protective hand was covering it. The rest of the garage is totally trashed, yet the T/A sat there with a zaino shine with only two droplets of water on it.

I think this settles the arguement...

So god is predjudice? It saved Joe but let his neighbors die? Joe was more worthy of being saved than some other poor guy and his family that got wiped out? Religion really does have an answer for everything. If you follow blindly, you're safe. If you don't belive or if you question god, you're condemned. You get condemned for indifference. Sounds like an all loving and all forgiving entity to me. Well, whether it was a divine act, something man made or natural, i'm glad it kept Joe and his family safe

[Kevin - Blown 95 TA]

All we can surmise is that the TransAm god is a powerful god and the GN god is a weak god, and only the TransAm god had the might to protect his child from the wrath of angry Posieden.