2002 ZL1 Camaro on Auto Trader for $19,800

[TraceZ]

You can't hear rod knock in a picture. You can't hear lifter or other valvetrain noise from a picture. You can't hear detonation in a picture. You cannot inspect the oil and other fluids from a picture. You cannot feel the transmission shift from a picture. You cannot hear an exhaust leak from a picture. You cannot verify that a car has never been wrecked or had body work done from a picture. You cannot feel how well the car drives from a picture.......and on and on and on

We're not trying to give you a hard time Tracy, just trying to point out the obvious. You can always find a great deal on a car for thousands less than book, and they can be looked at locally. You have obtained a few cars in the past without seeing them in person and they turned out to be OK. You were very fortunate. Don't count on that fortune to always follow through for you though.

It would be quite rare for a modern car with under 50,000 miles on it have major mechanical problems that you could hear by listening to it. The chances of getting a car with say, 35,000 miles on it and having the engine or transmission shot would be very slim. My cars all came from reputable dealerships with perfect feedback scores. These larger dealers are very carefull about the descriptions they put in the auctions. You dont sell cars online with a perfect feedback score if you are delivering cars with major mechanical issues.

I gotta disagree with you guys about this. It is very possible to research a car online and make a good purchase without ever actually seeing the vehicle. All it takes is a little caution, good judgement and some research into the dealer and the car. I've done it 4 times now for myself and my family and come out with 4 great deals and no regrets.

If you are really paranoid, use an online escrow service. That way you have time to inspect the car and return it if it is not satisfactory.

Another thing... If you get a car for $2500 below book you can spend a few hundred on it making it perfect and not feel to bad about it. I was considering getting dent wizard to fix the couple of door dings in my Olds, but then I remembered... it's just an oldsmibile, big deal. Other than those dings, that car is nearly perfect. It looks and even smells new. The rims havent even been curbed. It's crazy clean. The pictures in the auction looked like they were taken of a brand new car. The original floor mats were in the trunk, and looked like they were never used. It was unreal.

[fastTa]

The mileage of a car for sale is absolutely irrelevant in terms of mechanical condition. It all depends on how the car was driven and it what conditions it was driven in. Mechanical damage resulting from abuse can happen within a matter of miles....and it doesn't have to be blatently obvious either....it's not being paranoid. That being said, this is why you MUST personally drive a car before committing to a purchase.

Like I said before, you don't have to go online to find a car for $2500 below book. Then you can drive the car, inspect it personally, and then you don't even have to worry about putting money into fixing what you could not see from a few pictures.

[Steel2686]

I'll have to side with Tracy on the fact you can trust a reputable dealership online. There are so many laws on your side when it comes to dealing with car dealerships. The large, good-standing dealers wouldn't want the hassle of selling a car with problems. The PR hit alone isn't worth it for them. They wholesale the problem cars out to "less than reputable" car lots.

With that said, I wouldn't buy a car without first seeing it. Not because I disagree with Tracy's method. More because it's an OCD of mine. I have to physically check a car out from top to bottom before even considering it. So far, it's worked for me.

[Joe 1320]

I can agree with perhaps putting a deposit on a car at a dealership when I haven't seen the car. I've done that. To follow up, when the car arrived I wasn't happy with the wear and tear so I cancelled the sale. To this day, I'm still glad that I did that. I'm sure it woprks for some people, I'm not one of them. If it works for you great. I personally would never hand over payment for any car without seeing it and driving it in person. There are horror stories all over the net that verify the fact that cars are sold to people all the time that have problems that weren't disclosed during the sale. Even dealerships aren't squeeky clean. My folks bought a Van perhaps 10 years ago from a GMC dealer. A couple of years ago when they were having suspension problems, the same dealer's service department said that they couldn't fix the problem because it was evident the van was in a wreck. Now, that van wasn't in a wreck while in their posession, the sales department denies the van was wrecked as well. The result is both departments point fingers and nobody did anything. At the time they both were to physically ill to hire an attorney to deal with the matter, against my wishes they just let it go. All this becuase they bought the van for a "great deal" from a supposed reputable GMC dealer. The bottom line is trust is something that all too often dish out and sometimes it comes back to bite you. That's why the statement "Let the buyer beware"

[fastTa]

I'll have to side with Tracy on the fact you can trust a reputable dealership online. There are so many laws on your side when it comes to dealing with car dealerships. The large, good-standing dealers wouldn't want the hassle of selling a car with problems. The PR hit alone isn't worth it for them. They wholesale the problem cars out to "less than reputable" car lots.

With that said, I wouldn't buy a car without first seeing it. Not because I disagree with Tracy's method. More because it's an OCD of mine. I have to physically check a car out from top to bottom before even considering it. So far, it's worked for me.

Well, you have alot to learn about the car business my friend. Unfortunately (and ironically fortunately), I know a few folks in the car business. When buying a used car from a stealership the only law, and I mean the only law on your side is the Lemon Law. There exists no others. Furthermore, the car has to qualify to be sold as a a warrantied used car either written or implied per the Lemon Law Statutes. Then even if the used car qualifies to be sold as a warrantied used car, the stealership must provide all the paperwork and if you think most stealerships are going to voluntarily warranty a car you have got another thing coming. There is no such thing as a "PR hit" in the car business. They are a well oiled money making machine that will not even blink at a "disgruntled" customer. They are in the business to MAKE MONEY not save the customer money.

The vast majority of used cars are sold AS IS from the stealership. This means once you drive off the lot the car is yours....no warranty no law to protect you, nada. And, even if you are able to succesfully, per the law in your state, manipulate a lawsuit against the stealership, good luck persuading the judge to find the stealership liable...not to mention all the out of pocket attorney and legal fees involved. Some will win yes, but most will lose.

We live in a CYA world. It's just a good idea to persoanlly inspect the vehicle you intend on buying and if you aren't mechanically inclined, you should always take the car to a reputable mechanic to thoroughly inspect the vehicle.

[fastTa]

Just looking out for you guys.

[Dave M]

Well, you have alot to learn about the car business my friend. Unfortunately (and ironically fortunately), I know a few folks in the car business. When buying a used car from a stealership the only law, and I mean the only law on your side is the Lemon Law. There exists no others. Furthermore, the car has to qualify to be sold as a a warrantied used car either written or implied per the Lemon Law Statutes. Then even if the used car qualifies to be sold as a warrantied used car, the stealership must provide all the paperwork and if you think most stealerships are going to voluntarily warranty a car you have got another thing coming. There is no such thing as a "PR hit" in the car business. They are a well oiled money making machine that will not even blink at a "disgruntled" customer. They are in the business to MAKE MONEY not save the customer money.

The vast majority of used cars are sold AS IS from the stealership. This means once you drive off the lot the car is yours....no warranty no law to protect you, nada. And, even if you are able to succesfully, per the law in your state, manipulate a lawsuit against the stealership, good luck persuading the judge to find the stealership liable...not to mention all the out of pocket attorney and legal fees involved. Some will win yes, but most will lose.

We live in a CYA world. It's just a good idea to persoanlly inspect the vehicle you intend on buying and if you aren't mechanically inclined, you should always take the car to a reputable mechanic to thoroughly inspect the vehicle.

Lemon laws vary by state. In many states, the car needs not be warrantied to qualify for a lemon law. Most lemon laws simply state that the car needs to be in a shop for x amount of days or x number of times for the same problem.

[TraceZ]

It is not possible for a dealership to fake a perfect or near perfect feedback score on Ebay. If they were selling vehicles with defects it would hit their feedback score fast.

As a result, dealers sell cars in favorable condition on Ebay, the leftovers go to wholesale auction.

Look at some dealership feedback ratings on ebay and ask yourself if you would trust the seller based on their feedback score. What if the seller had positive feedback from 100 prior vehicle sales without a single complaint? Would you still be afraid the car you purchased would arrive all jacked up?

If a dealership can show a track record of good sales via a flawless feedback score, then that inspires enough confidence in me to order their items sight unseen.

[TraceZ]

Here is a good example of what I'm talking about.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1997-...QQcmdZViewItem

look at the mileage, the pictures and the dealers feedback score of 99%. The two negative feedbacks are both money related and not a single buyer has complained about a problem with the vehicle they recieved.

I would feel nearly 100% confident purchasing this car sight unseen. That would not be a problem for me in the least bit. And yes, I do realize the dealer said it is a SS when it is not.

[fastTa]

Honestly, I could care less if their feedback score was 110%. Feedback scores are made by the buyeer within a few days of delivery. Not an accurate representation at all of the long term durability and quality of the car. By the time the buyer finds the banaid fixes it is too late. All it takes is one time and one car that you could have significantly avoided by inspection the car yourself.

However slim that chance may be (not too slim by the way), I am not willing to take that chance.

[phastls1]

Honestly, I could care less if their feedback score was 110%. Feedback scores are made by the buyeer within a few days of delivery. Not an accurate representation at all of the long term durability and quality of the car. By the time the buyer finds the banaid fixes it is too late. All it takes is one time and one car that you could have significantly avoided by inspection the car yourself.

However slim that chance may be (not too slim by the way), I am not willing to take that chance.

Long term durability of any used vehicle is something that is an issue with any used car, wether it be from ebay, a stealership, or even your mom. After all, I've never heard of anyone offering a bumper-to-bumper warranty on a used vehicle free of charge that wasn't covered by the manufacturer.

As far as the ebay thing, basically when you buy sight unseen you bascially are hoping for the best. I (as a seller) wouldn't sell anything with a problem that I didn't completly state because of the simple fact that I wouldn't want to be done that way. People have looked at my feedback and felt confident enough to fly in to IN and drive back all the way to Seattle. Would I do that...hell no, but I wouldn't advise anyone else to do so unless it was mechanically compent to make the journey.

Just my $.02...

[Joe 1320]

Tracy, I am curious. Have you really bought a car that you've never driven? This Camaro is not what I am talking about as you have one and you know how they drive. I mean purchasing a car that you've never even driven a similar example of.

[TraceZ]

Tracy, I am curious. Have you really bought a car that you've never driven? This Camaro is not what I am talking about as you have one and you know how they drive. I mean purchasing a car that you've never even driven a similar example of.

Three times.

1) My 1996 Olds Cutlass. I had driven and owned other W bodies, but never the Oldsmobile variant. It was traded in with 46K miles on it by the original owners on a new Lexus. The dealer gave them $3000 on trade and sold it to me for $3200. It is fully loaded and a drives perfectly. It arrived on a car carrier and was unloaded into the street in front of my house. We pulled it into the driveway, inspected it and drove it 3 hours strait to Green Bay for the weekend. It drove and ran perfectly.

2) My 2003 Dodge Grand Caravan. This was at a dealer in Illinois. I drove down to pick it up. It was purchased new by one of the mechanics that worked at the dealership. It had 9K on it and was fully warrented. It is a "stripper" van without many options. It has rear air and CD, but that is about it. The mechanic traded up to a fully loaded van. I cannot say I had never driven a van like this, because I drove a similar one regularily for work only that one was the 3.8L AWD and was fully loaded. Mine is the 3.3L 2WD, which I wanted for better fuel economy and lower overall cost.

3) My Brother in Laws 1995 Pontiac Bonneville. Neither of us had ever driven a bonneville but read online reviews and it sounded good. The auction looked great, the pictures were clear and there was alot of them showing a perfect car. It was unbelievably clean and had just over 50K on it. The price was irrisistable and the seller had perfect feedback. It arrived on a car carrier to his home and he was very please upon inspecting it. He loves driving that car. He speaks of it very favorably.

Joe, another thing to keep in mind is that the closest city that we can drive to to find deals like these is Chicago. I have never in my life seen a M6 ragtop f-body for sale in my home town. Also, finding a car for thousands below book in this town is not easy.

If you can show me how to find cars like mine locally for the prices I have paid I'm all ears. Other than the Camaro, I could make thousands selling these things. I've actually considered buying them online, shipping them home and reselling them for some extra cash. I could easily make $2000/car.

There is a thrill involved when you watch a car carrier pull up to your house with your new car on it. I was out of town the day the Camaro arrived, and my dad actually took delivery and put it in the garage for me. I was so excited to get home and open that garage door! I wanted that car so bad. It's still to this day the only M6 ragtop 4th gen I have ever seen in real life, and that includes car shows I've been to.

I've got no regrets about any online vehicle purchases, and I've saved thousands. I'll do it again. In fact, when it comes time to flip the Cutlass, I bet I will be able to get at least what payed for it. I'll end up driving that car years for almost free.

I'm not saying there is no risk involved, but if you want to be successful, it usually involves a risk. I do research to make the risk as small as possible, and have been successful so far.

[Joe 1320]

Tracy,

I couldn't do that. I've had my heart set on a particular car and as sson as I drove it, I hated it. They may have looked the part, but didn't "feel" or drive like what I wanted so with disappointment...... I didn't buy them. I guess my criteria for buying is different. I only bought one car that I didn't like the way it drove and that was the Honda. It was miserable to drive, but I was at the right place at the right time and bought it cheap. I drove it for 35K miles and traded it for equal to what I had in it, so it wasn't a loss. I wish I could buy the way you do..... my injuries to my spine and neck just don't allow the risk.

[Dave M]

Tracy, I'll back you up on this one. It's certainly possible to buy a great car online and save thousands. Of course there is risk, there's risk in anything. But like you said, you can take steps to minimize risk. If you're worried about not knowing how the car drives because you've never driven one, there's nothing stopping you from test driving locally but buying on the web to sve the dough. My next car may very well be bought from eBay. I'm looking for an older, cheap truck and I wouldn't even care if it had some problems, but if I buy right I can get a nice truck on eBay for the same price as a crappy truck locally. Not having owned a truck before, I can test drive locally to find the make/model I like the best, then go on the net to find the best deal, using the tactics above to ensure the deal goes worry free.